Re: Important announcement Re:Waster

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Re: Important announcement Re:Waster

Postby Tord Romstad » 22 Mar 2004, 17:20

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 22 March 2004 17:20:23:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Important announcement Re:Waster geschrieben von:/posted by: Roger Brown at 22 March 2004 17:07:26:
Hello Geoff,
Without getting into the actual details, why give up?
Yes you are frustrated, yes you are annoyed but this is all a part of life.
Rant, rage, cry and even scream if you like.
Then show everybody that you can write an ass kicking program!
Ahem, no apologies for the ass reference.
I have a copy of Waster - I wrote you some time ago - and I am not deleting it fom my hard disk until you come up with its replacement.
So get to work!
:-)
Yes. We won't let you off the hook so easily, Geoff! When you have released
your engine to the public, there's no easy way out. As long as there is still
any way to reach you, we will keep pestering you with requests for new and
improved versions. :-)
Just replace the evaluation function with something you write yourself. Initially
it will perhaps be weaker than the current version of Waster, but quite soon you
will have something stronger than ever.
Tord
Tord Romstad
 

Re: Important announcement Re:Waster

Postby Dann Corbit » 22 Mar 2004, 17:31

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Dann Corbit at 22 March 2004 17:31:48:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Important announcement Re:Waster geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 22 March 2004 17:20:23:
Hello Geoff,
Without getting into the actual details, why give up?
Yes you are frustrated, yes you are annoyed but this is all a part of life.
Rant, rage, cry and even scream if you like.
Then show everybody that you can write an ass kicking program!
Ahem, no apologies for the ass reference.
I have a copy of Waster - I wrote you some time ago - and I am not deleting it fom my hard disk until you come up with its replacement.
So get to work!
:-)
Yes. We won't let you off the hook so easily, Geoff! When you have released
your engine to the public, there's no easy way out. As long as there is still
any way to reach you, we will keep pestering you with requests for new and
improved versions. :-)
Just replace the evaluation function with something you write yourself. Initially
it will perhaps be weaker than the current version of Waster, but quite soon you
will have something stronger than ever.
Here is an easy way to mathematically calculate piece square tables for pieces:
For each square on the board, see how many squares the piece would attack if the board were empty and the piece sat on that square. You will instantly see why a knight is bad in the corner.
I recommend keeping the bonus for proximity to the enemy camp outside of the piece square tables. For instance, the value of knight placement will depend on what side the opponent has castled.
You can do the same thing for pawns but it will only show you that the two edge pawns are terrible weaklings.
You must make a bonus for the two center pawns. I think that they block the bishops from controlling and also support other pieces that you want to place in the center. You should try several numbers (perhaps with a binary search).
These piece square tables will be better than the ones that you find laying around.
Trick:
For the kings, invert the piece square table in the opening and use it normally in the endgame. That is because ability to attack is also congruent to ability to be attacked. In the beginning, you don't want your king attacking anything unless that is the only choice.



my ftp site {remove http:// unless you like error messages}
Dann Corbit
 

Re: Important announcement Re:Waster

Postby Peter Fendrich » 22 Mar 2004, 17:41

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Peter Fendrich at 22 March 2004 17:41:20:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Important announcement Re:Waster geschrieben von:/posted by: Dann Corbit at 22 March 2004 17:31:48:
Hello Geoff,
Without getting into the actual details, why give up?
Yes you are frustrated, yes you are annoyed but this is all a part of life.
Rant, rage, cry and even scream if you like.
Then show everybody that you can write an ass kicking program!
Ahem, no apologies for the ass reference.
I have a copy of Waster - I wrote you some time ago - and I am not deleting it fom my hard disk until you come up with its replacement.
So get to work!
:-)
Yes. We won't let you off the hook so easily, Geoff! When you have released
your engine to the public, there's no easy way out. As long as there is still
any way to reach you, we will keep pestering you with requests for new and
improved versions. :-)
Just replace the evaluation function with something you write yourself. Initially
it will perhaps be weaker than the current version of Waster, but quite soon you
will have something stronger than ever.
Here is an easy way to mathematically calculate piece square tables for pieces:
For each square on the board, see how many squares the piece would attack if the board were empty and the piece sat on that square. You will instantly see why a knight is bad in the corner.
I recommend keeping the bonus for proximity to the enemy camp outside of the piece square tables. For instance, the value of knight placement will depend on what side the opponent has castled.
You can do the same thing for pawns but it will only show you that the two edge pawns are terrible weaklings.
You must make a bonus for the two center pawns. I think that they block the bishops from controlling and also support other pieces that you want to place in the center. You should try several numbers (perhaps with a binary search).
These piece square tables will be better than the ones that you find laying around.
Trick:
For the kings, invert the piece square table in the opening and use it normally in the endgame. That is because ability to attack is also congruent to ability to be attacked. In the beginning, you don't want your king attacking anything unless that is the only choice.
Another trick: Don't do this for queens until middle game.
/Peter
Peter Fendrich
 

Re: Important announcement Re:Waster

Postby Sune Fischer » 22 Mar 2004, 18:23

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Sune Fischer at 22 March 2004 18:23:18:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Important announcement Re:Waster geschrieben von:/posted by: Dann Corbit at 22 March 2004 17:31:48:
Yes. We won't let you off the hook so easily, Geoff! When you have released
your engine to the public, there's no easy way out. As long as there is still
any way to reach you, we will keep pestering you with requests for new and
improved versions. :-)
Just replace the evaluation function with something you write yourself. Initially
it will perhaps be weaker than the current version of Waster, but quite soon you
will have something stronger than ever.
Here is an easy way to mathematically calculate piece square tables for pieces:
For each square on the board, see how many squares the piece would attack if the board were empty and the piece sat on that square. You will instantly see why a knight is bad in the corner.
I recommend keeping the bonus for proximity to the enemy camp outside of the piece square tables. For instance, the value of knight placement will depend on what side the opponent has castled.
You can do the same thing for pawns but it will only show you that the two edge pawns are terrible weaklings.
You must make a bonus for the two center pawns. I think that they block the bishops from controlling and also support other pieces that you want to place in the center. You should try several numbers (perhaps with a binary search).
These piece square tables will be better than the ones that you find laying around.
Trick:
For the kings, invert the piece square table in the opening and use it normally in the endgame. That is because ability to attack is also congruent to ability to be attacked. In the beginning, you don't want your king attacking anything unless that is the only choice.
This doesn't work so well in my program.
I think it is because rooks and bishops are better as long range attackers.
They are able to support and attack the center while still being safe at home
in the bunker.
In later stages of the game it probably changes, rooks and queens can more
safely go to the center without being driven around by pawns and minors.
A binary search?
I think the problem is that it requires lots of testing for each setting.
Knowning that these changes are bound to be minor it's also evident it's going
to be quite hard to see the difference.
It's not so easy to make good piece squares, sometimes one is surprised at
what should be working doesn't work. :)
I think piece squares are too static to be used in a king safety eval. Sometimes it is suicide to castle into the corner.
Probably better to try and evaluate if there is a good
pawn shelter and not too much attacking power on it.
This general safety code should be enough to encourage the king to castle
to safety, IMO.
-S.
Sune Fischer
 

Re: Important announcement Re:Waster

Postby Dann Corbit » 22 Mar 2004, 18:42

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Dann Corbit at 22 March 2004 18:42:10:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: Important announcement Re:Waster geschrieben von:/posted by: Peter Fendrich at 22 March 2004 17:41:20:

[snip]
For the kings, invert the piece square table in the opening and use it normally in the endgame. That is because ability to attack is also congruent to ability to be attacked. In the beginning, you don't want your king attacking anything unless that is the only choice.
Another trick: Don't do this for queens until middle game.
Lots of special rules need to be added.
Knights before bishops
Rooks and queens wait
Also, the pawn shelters for the king should not be fractured until you have decided what side to castle on.
Lots of other little tweaks. But the general rules are good enough to get started.



my ftp site {remove http:// unless you like error messages}
Dann Corbit
 


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