Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 17:11:13:

And in game 8, Ufim 3.02 won again.It now stands 2,5-5,5 in favour of Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia_090 somewhat surprising if one considers the fact that Ufim is in every game out of book after a few moves.
Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 [8] 1-0 [now 5,5-2,5]
Black chose 14...Rc8?
 abcdefgh  8      8  7     7  6        6  5       5  4         4  3      3  2    2  1       1  abcdefgh ChessDiag V1.01 (12-OCT-2002)r2q1rk1/pb3ppp/1p3n2/n2p2B1/1b6/1PN2NP1/P2QPPBP/3R1RK1 b - - 0 14
[Event "Bestia090_Ufim302 P3 650/32 120'/40"]
[Site "Wetzikon"]
[Date "2003.03.10"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Ufim 3.02"]
[Black "Bestia_090"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "A30"]
[PlyCount "148"]
1. c4 {Comments: Kurt Utzinger, Switzerland, engine/engine match under
Winboard 4.2.5, ponder=off, both engines with owns books, played on P3 650/32
MB hash at time control 120'/40} 1... e6 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Nc3 {
White last book move} 3... c5 4. g3 b6 5. Bg2 Bb7 6. O-O Be7 7. d4 cxd4 8. Qxd4
O-O {Black last book move} 9. Bf4 Nc6 {If Black cannot open the position in
the centre, then White would have the advantage due to the more space
available.} 10. Qd2 Na5 11. b3 d5 {
Even more precise was it to prepare this move by 11...Bb4} 12. cxd5 exd5 {
Perhaps not best in a positional sense as this can lead to a weak isolated
centre pawn in particular because of the badly placed Bb7. If his bishop
stands on the diagonal c8-h3, the exchange e6xd5 was an alternative worth.} 13.
Rad1 {Or 13.Rfd1+/= but in my opinion the blockading move 13.Nd4+/= was best}
13... Bb4 {I would have played without much hesitation 13...Ne4. After 14.Nxe4
dxe4 the isolated pawn would have gone. White should therefore answer 13...Ne4
with 14.Qd3. On the other hand, it seems as if Black's position is better than
looking at first glance.} 14. Bg5 Rc8 {(??) But this time we can speak about a
positional mishap - or was it a tactical oversight of Bestia090 - as White is
able to destroy blakc's kingside pawn structure. Black remains with a complete
corrupted pawn structure. The game is already over here. Correct was therefore
14...Bxc3 15.Qxc3 Ne4 with only a slight advantage for White.} 15. Bxf6 gxf6 {
And not 15...Qxf6 16.Nxd5 when Black is a pawn down} 16. Rc1 Re8 17. e3 d4 {
(?) Desperation on the part of Bestia_090 who sacrifices a pawn for nothing}
18. Nxd4 Bxg2 19. Kxg2 Nc6 20. Nf3 Qxd2 21. Nxd2 Red8 22. Nf3 Ne5 23. Ne2 Bc5
24. Rfd1 Rxd1 25. Rxd1 Kf8 26. Nfd4 Ke8 27. Nf5 Be7 28. Nf4 Rc2 29. Nd5 Bd8 30.
Nd6+ {White has complete control on the board} 30... Kf8 {If 30...Kd7 31.Nxf7+-
} 31. Nb4 Rc7 32. Nb5 Rc8 33. Nxa7 Ra8 34. Nac6 Nxc6 35. Nxc6 Be7 36. Rd7 Bc5
37. a4 Rc8 38. Na7 {To prefer was the centralizing 38.Nd4} 38... Rb8 39. Nb5
Ke8 40. Rc7 Be7 41. Rc4 Kd7 {(?) Leaves the kingside pawn unprotected} 42. Rd4+
Kc6 43. Rh4 Rh8 44. Rc4+ Bc5 45. Nc3 {Threatening to win a piece with 46.b4}
45... Kb7 46. Rf4 Be7 47. Nd5 Bd8 48. Nxf6 {White has a plus of 3 pawns} 48...
Kc7 49. Nd5+ Kd6 50. e4 Rf8 51. Rf5 Ke6 52. Nf4+ Kd7 53. f3 Ke8 54. Re5+ Kd7
55. Rh5 Rh8 56. b4 h6 57. Rf5 Rh7 58. Rd5+ Ke7 59. Rb5 Kd7 60. Rd5+ Ke7 61. Rb5
Kd7 62. Kf2 Kc6 63. Rh5 Bf6 64. Nd5 Bg7 65. Ke3 Bb2 66. Kd3 Bg7 67. Rf5 Bh8 68.
Nf6 Bxf6 69. Rxf6+ Kc7 70. Kc4 h5 71. Kb5 Kd7 72. Rxb6 h4 73. a5 hxg3 74. hxg3
Rh5+ 1-0

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Uri Blass at 10 March 2003 17:22:02:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 17:11:13:

And in game 8, Ufim 3.02 won again.It now stands 2,5-5,5 in favour of Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia_090 somewhat surprising if one considers the fact that Ufim is in every game out of book after a few moves.

It only proves that books are not very important at that level.

movei's book is not bigger than Ufim's book and you can see that movei score clearly better than Ufim in Leo tournament.
List4.61's book is even smaller(empty book) and list is even better
than Movei of Leo's tournament.
Uri

[U.Tuerke]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: U.Tuerke at 10 March 2003 17:28:09:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Uri Blass at 10 March 2003 17:22:02:

And in game 8, Ufim 3.02 won again.It now stands 2,5-5,5 in favour of Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia_090 somewhat surprising if one considers the fact that Ufim is in every game out of book after a few moves.

It only proves that books are not very important at that level.

movei's book is not bigger than Ufim's book and you can see that movei score clearly better than Ufim in Leo tournament.
List4.61's book is even smaller(empty book) and list is even better
than Movei of Leo's tournament.
Uri

A large book (with many variations) is necessary in a multi-game match against a book-learner (e.g. SSDF). Otherwise, they 'll slay the engine by repeating lost lines.
In 4 game matches, a large book isn't really a significant advantage; may be even a certain risk because some crap may contained.
Uli

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 17:29:02:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Uri Blass at 10 March 2003 17:22:02:

And in game 8, Ufim 3.02 won again.It now stands 2,5-5,5 in favour of Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia_090 somewhat surprising if one considers the fact that Ufim is in every game out of book after a few moves.

It only proves that books are not very important at that level.

movei's book is not bigger than Ufim's book and you can see that movei score clearly better than Ufim in Leo tournament.
List4.61's book is even smaller(empty book) and list is even better
than Movei of Leo's tournament.
Uri

That is indeed true.
Do you consider Movei being stronger [in general] than Ufim 3.02? If so I am going to play the next match with your engine.

[Matthias Gemuh]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Matthias Gemuh at 10 March 2003 17:43:11:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 17:29:02:

Do you consider Movei being stronger [in general] than Ufim 3.02? If so I am going to play the next match with your engine.

Movei is at least Elo 150 stronger than Ufim !!
On lucky days, my weak BigLion scores 10:10 against Ufim,
but can hardly achieves 4:16 against Movei.
/Matthias.

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Uri Blass at 10 March 2003 17:44:39:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 17:29:02:

And in game 8, Ufim 3.02 won again.It now stands 2,5-5,5 in favour of Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia_090 somewhat surprising if one considers the fact that Ufim is in every game out of book after a few moves.

It only proves that books are not very important at that level.

movei's book is not bigger than Ufim's book and you can see that movei score clearly better than Ufim in Leo tournament.

That is indeed true.
Do you consider Movei being stronger [in general] than Ufim 3.02? If so I am going to play the next match with your engine.

I am not sure about 00_799 but I guess that it is stronger except blitz.
based on tournaments like Leo's tournament movei seems to be stronger
than Ufim but Leo used later version than 00_799.
I can send you 00_79997 or 00_8 if you are interested in it because
00_799 has no knowledge about king safety and no knowledge about isolated pawns or passed pawns when latest version knows at least about protected passed pawns(I should improve it by giving bonus for passed pawns in the right cases and I still did not do it).
I believe that 00_8 is 1.5-2% faster but I am not 100% sure of no bugs at this moment.
Uri

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 17:57:42:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Uri Blass at 10 March 2003 17:44:39:

And in game 8, Ufim 3.02 won again.It now stands 2,5-5,5 in favour of Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia_090 somewhat surprising if one considers the fact that Ufim is in every game out of book after a few moves.

It only proves that books are not very important at that level.

movei's book is not bigger than Ufim's book and you can see that movei score clearly better than Ufim in Leo tournament.

That is indeed true.
Do you consider Movei being stronger [in general] than Ufim 3.02? If so I am going to play the next match with your engine.

I am not sure about 00_799 but I guess that it is stronger except blitz.
based on tournaments like Leo's tournament movei seems to be stronger
than Ufim but Leo used later version than 00_799.
I can send you 00_79997 or 00_8 if you are interested in it because
00_799 has no knowledge about king safety and no knowledge about isolated pawns or passed pawns when latest version knows at least about protected passed pawns(I should improve it by giving bonus for passed pawns in the right cases and I still did not do it).
I believe that 00_8 is 1.5-2% faster but I am not 100% sure of no bugs at this moment.
Uri

OK, the next match will be Movei 00_798 vs Ufim 3.02. I would appreciate receiving your engine by email.
Kurt

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 18:01:11:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Matthias Gemuh at 10 March 2003 17:43:11:

Do you consider Movei being stronger [in general] than Ufim 3.02? If so I am going to play the next match with your engine.

Movei is at least Elo 150 stronger than Ufim !!
On lucky days, my weak BigLion scores 10:10 against Ufim,
but can hardly achieves 4:16 against Movei.
/Matthias.

Hi Matthias
If this is so, I should choose another opponent for Movei. Any suggestion?
Kurt

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Uri Blass at 10 March 2003 18:07:23:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 17:57:42:

And in game 8, Ufim 3.02 won again.It now stands 2,5-5,5 in favour of Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia_090 somewhat surprising if one considers the fact that Ufim is in every game out of book after a few moves.

It only proves that books are not very important at that level.

movei's book is not bigger than Ufim's book and you can see that movei score clearly better than Ufim in Leo tournament.

That is indeed true.
Do you consider Movei being stronger [in general] than Ufim 3.02? If so I am going to play the next match with your engine.

I am not sure about 00_799 but I guess that it is stronger except blitz.
based on tournaments like Leo's tournament movei seems to be stronger
than Ufim but Leo used later version than 00_799.
I can send you 00_79997 or 00_8 if you are interested in it because
00_799 has no knowledge about king safety and no knowledge about isolated pawns or passed pawns when latest version knows at least about protected passed pawns(I should improve it by giving bonus for passed pawns in the right cases and I still did not do it).
I believe that 00_8 is 1.5-2% faster but I am not 100% sure of no bugs at this moment.
Uri

OK, the next match will be Movei 00_798 vs Ufim 3.02. I would appreciate receiving your engine by email.
Kurt

00_798?
I am afraid that I did not save that version.
When I look for earlier versions than 00_799 I find only 00_796.
When do you plan to start the next match?
Uri

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 18:44:44:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Uri Blass at 10 March 2003 18:07:23:

And in game 8, Ufim 3.02 won again.It now stands 2,5-5,5 in favour of Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia_090 somewhat surprising if one considers the fact that Ufim is in every game out of book after a few moves.

It only proves that books are not very important at that level.

movei's book is not bigger than Ufim's book and you can see that movei score clearly better than Ufim in Leo tournament.

That is indeed true.
Do you consider Movei being stronger [in general] than Ufim 3.02? If so I am going to play the next match with your engine.

I am not sure about 00_799 but I guess that it is stronger except blitz.
based on tournaments like Leo's tournament movei seems to be stronger
than Ufim but Leo used later version than 00_799.
I can send you 00_79997 or 00_8 if you are interested in it because
00_799 has no knowledge about king safety and no knowledge about isolated pawns or passed pawns when latest version knows at least about protected passed pawns(I should improve it by giving bonus for passed pawns in the right cases and I still did not do it).
I believe that 00_8 is 1.5-2% faster but I am not 100% sure of no bugs at this moment.
Uri

OK, the next match will be Movei 00_798 vs Ufim 3.02. I would appreciate receiving your engine by email.
Kurt

00_798?
I am afraid that I did not save that version.
When I look for earlier versions than 00_799 I find only 00_796.
When do you plan to start the next match?
Uri

What a pity. I wanted to start a new match this evening. It's however not urgent. I am awaiting your 'best' engine and a suggestion of the opponent as Ufim 3.02 is considered to be 150 ELO weaker.
Kurt
Kurt & Rolf Chess

[Sune Fischer]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Sune Fischer at 10 March 2003 18:54:06:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 18:01:11:

Do you consider Movei being stronger [in general] than Ufim 3.02? If so I am going to play the next match with your engine.

Movei is at least Elo 150 stronger than Ufim !!
On lucky days, my weak BigLion scores 10:10 against Ufim,
but can hardly achieves 4:16 against Movei.
/Matthias.

Hi Matthias
If this is so, I should choose another opponent for Movei. Any suggestion?
Kurt

Try Chezzz.
-S.

[Günther Simon]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Günther Simon at 10 March 2003 19:15:53:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 18:44:44:

I am afraid that I did not save that version.
When I look for earlier versions than 00_799 I find only 00_796.
When do you plan to start the next match?
Uri

What a pity. I wanted to start a new match this evening. It's however not urgent. I am awaiting your 'best' engine and a suggestion of the opponent as Ufim 3.02 is considered to be 150 ELO weaker.
Kurt

I suggest Chezzz 1.03, Arasan 6.3 or Gaviota 0.33 if you want to use
a not so long ago released one. (furthermore those dont match Movei
in the current Leos' 2nd Div.)
Regards,
Günther

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Uri Blass at 10 March 2003 19:29:55:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 18:44:44:

And in game 8, Ufim 3.02 won again.It now stands 2,5-5,5 in favour of Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia_090 somewhat surprising if one considers the fact that Ufim is in every game out of book after a few moves.

It only proves that books are not very important at that level.

movei's book is not bigger than Ufim's book and you can see that movei score clearly better than Ufim in Leo tournament.

That is indeed true.
Do you consider Movei being stronger [in general] than Ufim 3.02? If so I am going to play the next match with your engine.

I am not sure about 00_799 but I guess that it is stronger except blitz.
based on tournaments like Leo's tournament movei seems to be stronger
than Ufim but Leo used later version than 00_799.
I can send you 00_79997 or 00_8 if you are interested in it because
00_799 has no knowledge about king safety and no knowledge about isolated pawns or passed pawns when latest version knows at least about protected passed pawns(I should improve it by giving bonus for passed pawns in the right cases and I still did not do it).
I believe that 00_8 is 1.5-2% faster but I am not 100% sure of no bugs at this moment.
Uri

OK, the next match will be Movei 00_798 vs Ufim 3.02. I would appreciate receiving your engine by email.
Kurt

00_798?
I am afraid that I did not save that version.
When I look for earlier versions than 00_799 I find only 00_796.
When do you plan to start the next match?
Uri

What a pity. I wanted to start a new match this evening. It's however not urgent. I am awaiting your 'best' engine and a suggestion of the opponent as Ufim 3.02 is considered to be 150 ELO weaker.
Kurt

ok
I am going to decide if 00_8 has no bugs and in case that I see the same results for 00_8 and 00_79997 except times then I am going to send you
00_8
I guess that I will send you my best version tommorow.
I give other people to suggest possible opponents.
I believe that there is an improvement relative to 00_799 but I do not
know how much improvement(I guess 50 elo improvement)
I did not test at long time control and I use the gcp test suite
to tell me if there are some new search problems at long time control.
I did not test at time control that is slower than 10 minutes/40 moves.
I am not going to do evaluation changes in the last moment because I am afraid from bugs so evaluation changes will be done only in the version after the version that you get(I know about specific problems of movei and I will try to correct them).
Uri

[N.K.]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: N.K. at 11 March 2003 06:47:49:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia 090 (8) 120'/40 [1-0] Commented game geschrieben von: / posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 10 March 2003 18:44:44:

And in game 8, Ufim 3.02 won again.It now stands 2,5-5,5 in favour of Ufim 3.02 vs Bestia_090 somewhat surprising if one considers the fact that Ufim is in every game out of book after a few moves.

It only proves that books are not very important at that level.

movei's book is not bigger than Ufim's book and you can see that movei score clearly better than Ufim in Leo tournament.

That is indeed true.
Do you consider Movei being stronger [in general] than Ufim 3.02? If so I am going to play the next match with your engine.

I am not sure about 00_799 but I guess that it is stronger except blitz.
based on tournaments like Leo's tournament movei seems to be stronger
than Ufim but Leo used later version than 00_799.
I can send you 00_79997 or 00_8 if you are interested in it because
00_799 has no knowledge about king safety and no knowledge about isolated pawns or passed pawns when latest version knows at least about protected passed pawns(I should improve it by giving bonus for passed pawns in the right cases and I still did not do it).
I believe that 00_8 is 1.5-2% faster but I am not 100% sure of no bugs at this moment.
Uri

OK, the next match will be Movei 00_798 vs Ufim 3.02. I would appreciate receiving your engine by email.
Kurt

00_798?
I am afraid that I did not save that version.
When I look for earlier versions than 00_799 I find only 00_796.
When do you plan to start the next match?
Uri

What a pity. I wanted to start a new match this evening. It's however not urgent. I am awaiting your 'best' engine and a suggestion of the opponent as Ufim 3.02 is considered to be 150 ELO weaker.
Kurt

I can suggest Deep9 V1R5, Frenzee 142 or Chezz 1.03.
BTW, thank you for you analyzes.
I'll try some ideas from your posts in the next version of Ufim.