Ktulu and pondering

[Lyapko George]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Lyapko George at 11 April 2003 08:16:28:

I've played a little bit with Ktulu trying to disable pondering.
It seems that in order to prevent pondering it needs "ponder" command from GUI after each move it makes.
To ensure this, I've started Taskinfo and winboard match Ktulu vs. me. Time control was set to 30min/40 moves. After Ktulu made its move, it starts to ponder and Taskinfo shows CPU usage ~95%, but when I press "Ctrl+1" and enter "ponder" each time CPU usage falls down to 0%.
Now the problem is that it seems to be impossible to use InBetween, because there are no commands from Winboard to engine when it is not on move
Here is debug:


recognized 'normal' (-1) as variant normal
WinBoard 4.2.5 + ktulu
Reset(1, 0) from gameMode 0
recognized 'normal' (-1) as variant normal
GameEnds(0, (null), 2)
StartChildProcess (dir="l:\ktulu") ktulu
550 >first : xboard
protover 2
610 <first : 
610 <first :    *************************************************************************
610 <first :    * Ktulu version 3.2 Copyright (C) 2002-2003 by Rahman Paidar.           *
610 <first :    * No part of this program may be sold for earning purposes but copying  *
610 <first :    * and distribute it without fee is allowed.                             *
610 <first :    * Website: http://rahman85.tripod.com/rahman.html                       *
610 <first :    * Email: rpn_mail@yahoo.com                                             *
610 <first :    *************************************************************************
610 <first : 
610 <first : Pawn Hash : 1MB
610 <first : Hash tables: 32MB
610 <first : Hash tables: 2MB
610 <first : feature done=1
610 >first : accepted done
610 <first : kelluser Ktulu version 3.2, Engine by Rahman Paidar,Winboard by Tim Mann
610 >first : new
random
610 >first : level 40 30 0
610 >first : post
610 >first : hard
610 >first : easy
4120 >first : time 180000
otim 180000
4120 >first : a2a3
11650 <first : 10 21 700 3447267 e5 e3 Nf6 Bb5 Nc6 d4 exd4 exd4 a6 Bc4 d5  Np:492466
23890 <first : 11 21 1900 8975568 e5 e4 Nf6 Nf3 Nxe4 Qe2 Nf6 Qxe5+ Be7 Bb5 Nc6 Qf5  Np:472398
27850 <first : 11 22 2300 10667843 Nf6  Np:463819
32740 <first : 12 7 2800 12884197 Nf6 Nf3 e6 e3 d5 d4 Bd6 Bd3 Bd7 0-0 0-0 Bd2  Np:460149
34440 <first : 12 8 3000 13624619 e5  Np:454153
44380 <first : 12 18 4000 18114607 e5 e4 Nf6 Nc3 Bc5 Nf3 d5 Nxe5 dxe4 Bc4 Bxf2+ Ke2 e3  Np:452865
81180 <first : 13 18 7700 34482660 e5 e4 Nf6 Nf3 Nxe4 Qe2 d5 d3 Nf6 Qxe5+ Be6 Nd4 Nbd7 Nxe6  Np:447826
98150 <first : 13 19 9400 42077954 Nf6  Np:447637
117760 <first : move g8f6
Interrupting first
145060 >first : time 168636
otim 177270
145060 >first : b2b3
148030 <first : 10 26 300 1393490 e6 Nf3 d5 e3 Bd6 Be2 0-0 0-0 e5 Bb2  Np:464496
149130 <first : 10 27 400 1899053 d5  Np:474763
149890 <first : 10 30 400 2282148 d5 Nf3 Bg4 Bb2 Nc6 e3 e5 Bb5 e4 Bxc6+ bxc6 Bxf6  Np:570537
150330 <first : 10 31 500 2492757 e5  Np:498551
153080 <first : 10 43 800 3785482 e5 Bb2 e4 e3 Be7 Bb5 0-0 Ne2 a6 Bc4  Np:473185
159010 <first : 11 47 1300 6459660 e5 Bb2 e4 Bxf6 Qxf6 Nc3 Qf5 e3 d5 Nb5 Na6 Be2  Np:496896
179280 <first : 12 51 3400 15874475 e5 Bb2 e4 Nc3 Be7 d3 e3 fxe3 0-0 Nf3 d5 Ne5  Np:466896
189820 <first : move e7e5
214980 <first : 12 52 2500 12086483 d6 e3 Be7 Be2 0-0 Nf3 e4 Nd4 a6 c4 c5 Nc2  Np:483459
...here I entered "ponder"...

Interrupting first
448580 >first : time 164160
otim 151394
448580 >first : c2c3
451710 <first : 10 107 300 1462394 d5 d4 exd4 cxd4 Be7 Bf4 0-0 e3 Bf5 Bd3 Bxd3  Np:487464
GameEnds(34, Game aborted, 2)
Interrupting first
451870 >first : result * {Game aborted}
451870 >first : force
GameEnds(0, (null), 2)
459780 >first : quit


Best regards,
George

[Odd Gunnar Malin]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 08:36:22:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Ktulu and pondering geschrieben von: / posted by: Lyapko George at 11 April 2003 08:16:28:

I've played a little bit with Ktulu trying to disable pondering.
It seems that in order to prevent pondering it needs "ponder" command from GUI after each move it makes.

It could be time for an updated version of InBetween so I can suggest a new command:
command from client := %string% to server
would result in:
command from client to server
Maybe an expanded version could be useful too:
command from server := %string1% %string2% client
result in:
command from client
Any other suggestion?
Automatic response
[Client2Client]
[Server2Server]
Ex. of use.
[Client2Client]
protover2 := feature setboard=1
to tell a gui that a wbI engine support setboard.

Odd Gunnar

[Odd Gunnar Malin]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 08:44:36:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ktulu and pondering geschrieben von: / posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 08:36:22:

I've played a little bit with Ktulu trying to disable pondering.
It seems that in order to prevent pondering it needs "ponder" command from GUI after each move it makes.

It could be time for an updated version of InBetween so I can suggest a new command:
command from client := %string% to server
would result in:
command from client to server
Maybe an expanded version could be useful too:
command from server := %string1% %string2% client
result in:
command from client

Ok, it would not solve your problem.
usermove := %append% \n ponder
could do it.
Too complicated?
Odd Gunnar

[Odd Gunnar Malin]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 09:27:19:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ktulu and pondering geschrieben von: / posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 08:44:36:

I've played a little bit with Ktulu trying to disable pondering.
It seems that in order to prevent pondering it needs "ponder" command from GUI after each move it makes.

It could be time for an updated version of InBetween so I can suggest a new command:
command from client := %string% to server
would result in:
command from client to server
Maybe an expanded version could be useful too:
command from server := %string1% %string2% client
result in:
command from client

Ok, it would not solve your problem.
usermove := %append% \n ponder
could do it.
Too complicated?
Odd Gunnar

Maybe more generic would be:
Left values
%wild% - any strings
Ex.
%wild% testing - String ends with 'testing'
testing %wild% - String start with 'testing'
%wild% testing %wild% - 'testing' exist in string
Right values
%string[n]% - LValue string[word]
Ex.
%string% - the whole string
%string4% - Fourth word string.
Odd Gunnar

[Lyapko George]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Lyapko George at 11 April 2003 09:34:11:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ktulu and pondering geschrieben von: / posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 09:27:19:

I've played a little bit with Ktulu trying to disable pondering.
It seems that in order to prevent pondering it needs "ponder" command from GUI after each move it makes.

It could be time for an updated version of InBetween so I can suggest a new command:
command from client := %string% to server
would result in:
command from client to server
Maybe an expanded version could be useful too:
command from server := %string1% %string2% client
result in:
command from client

Ok, it would not solve your problem.
usermove := %append% \n ponder
could do it.
Too complicated?
Odd Gunnar

Maybe more generic would be:
Left values
%wild% - any strings
Ex.
%wild% testing - String ends with 'testing'
testing %wild% - String start with 'testing'
%wild% testing %wild% - 'testing' exist in string
Right values
%string[n]% - LValue string[word]
Ex.
%string% - the whole string
%string4% - Fourth word string.
Odd Gunnar

In a case of Ktulu(and old Tao) we also need a command from server to client after each move and I could imagine that we will need a command before each move.
George

[Odd Gunnar Malin]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 09:55:38:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ktulu and pondering geschrieben von: / posted by: Lyapko George at 11 April 2003 09:34:11:

I've played a little bit with Ktulu trying to disable pondering.
It seems that in order to prevent pondering it needs "ponder" command from GUI after each move it makes.

It could be time for an updated version of InBetween so I can suggest a new command:
command from client := %string% to server
would result in:
command from client to server
Maybe an expanded version could be useful too:
command from server := %string1% %string2% client
result in:
command from client

Ok, it would not solve your problem.
usermove := %append% \n ponder
could do it.
Too complicated?
Odd Gunnar

Maybe more generic would be:
Left values
%wild% - any strings
Ex.
%wild% testing - String ends with 'testing'
testing %wild% - String start with 'testing'
%wild% testing %wild% - 'testing' exist in string
Right values
%string[n]% - LValue string[word]
Ex.
%string% - the whole string
%string4% - Fourth word string.
Odd Gunnar

In a case of Ktulu(and old Tao) we also need a command from server to client after each move and I could imagine that we will need a command before each move.
George

If the engines understand 'usermove' this trick would do it.
usermove %wild% := %string% \n added command
or
usermove %wild% := added command \n %string%
If the engine don't understand 'usermove' you can use
For WBI engines
[Client2Client]
protover 2 := feature usermove=1
For WBII engines
[Server2Client]
feature done=0 := feature done=0 usermove=1
and then translate it like this
usermove %wild% := %string2% \n added command
or
usermove %wild% := added command \n %string2%
So i think it would be doable with the suggested extentions.
I would like to keep it generic in InBetween without the knowledge of chess since my thought is that it should be usefull in other communication. Ex. In my job I often deal with program's from different companies that have to be able to talk with each other (transfere of energy values).
Odd Gunnar

[Odd Gunnar Malin]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 10:26:42:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ktulu and pondering geschrieben von: / posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 09:55:38:

I've played a little bit with Ktulu trying to disable pondering.
It seems that in order to prevent pondering it needs "ponder" command from GUI after each move it makes.

It could be time for an updated version of InBetween so I can suggest a new command:
command from client := %string% to server
would result in:
command from client to server
Maybe an expanded version could be useful too:
command from server := %string1% %string2% client
result in:
command from client

Ok, it would not solve your problem.
usermove := %append% \n ponder
could do it.
Too complicated?
Odd Gunnar

Maybe more generic would be:
Left values
%wild% - any strings
Ex.
%wild% testing - String ends with 'testing'
testing %wild% - String start with 'testing'
%wild% testing %wild% - 'testing' exist in string
Right values
%string[n]% - LValue string[word]
Ex.
%string% - the whole string
%string4% - Fourth word string.
Odd Gunnar

In a case of Ktulu(and old Tao) we also need a command from server to client after each move and I could imagine that we will need a command before each move.
George

If the engines understand 'usermove' this trick would do it.
usermove %wild% := %string% \n added command
or
usermove %wild% := added command \n %string%
If the engine don't understand 'usermove' you can use
For WBI engines
[Client2Client]
protover 2 := feature usermove=1
For WBII engines
[Server2Client]
feature done=0 := feature done=0 usermove=1
and then translate it like this
usermove %wild% := %string2% \n added command
or
usermove %wild% := added command \n %string2%
So i think it would be doable with the suggested extentions.
I would like to keep it generic in InBetween without the knowledge of chess since my thought is that it should be usefull in other communication. Ex. In my job I often deal with program's from different companies that have to be able to talk with each other (transfere of energy values).
Odd Gunnar

Here is another place to use InBetween
You have a pgn file like this
--------------
[Even "test"]
[Site ""]
...
1.e4 *
-----------------
and want to correct the site tag.
You can make a InBetween.ini like this
-------------
[InBetween]
CommandLine := cmd /c type test.pgn
[Server2Client]
[Site ""] := [Site "?"]
-------------------------
And run the command: InBetween > result.pgn
The result.pgn would then be:
--------------
[Even "test"]
[Site "?"]
...
1.e4 *
-----------------
Odd Gunnar

[Günther Simon]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Günther Simon at 11 April 2003 12:01:06:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Ktulu and pondering geschrieben von: / posted by: Lyapko George at 11 April 2003 08:16:28:

I've played a little bit with Ktulu trying to disable pondering.
It seems that in order to prevent pondering it needs "ponder" command from GUI after each move it makes.
To ensure this, I've started Taskinfo and winboard match Ktulu vs. me. Time control was set to 30min/40 moves. After Ktulu made its move, it starts to ponder and Taskinfo shows CPU usage ~95%, but when I press "Ctrl+1" and enter "ponder" each time CPU usage falls down to 0%.
Now the problem is that it seems to be impossible to use InBetween, because there are no commands from Winboard to engine when it is not on move
Best regards,
George

...snip...

Now I got a nice answer from the author of Ktulu, Rahman Paidar in which
he told me that it is unfortunately impossible to switch off pondering in
this version. Well the good thing is that he will add this feature in
the next to come version!
Referring to what you wrote above does this mean that Chessmaster
sends "ponder" or "noponder" after every move otherwise I cant imagine
that it will run correctly in ponder off mode?
Best regards,
Günther

[Odd Gunnar Malin]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 12:24:42:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ktulu and pondering (answer from the author) geschrieben von: / posted by: Günther Simon at 11 April 2003 12:01:06:

I've played a little bit with Ktulu trying to disable pondering.
It seems that in order to prevent pondering it needs "ponder" command from GUI after each move it makes.
To ensure this, I've started Taskinfo and winboard match Ktulu vs. me. Time control was set to 30min/40 moves. After Ktulu made its move, it starts to ponder and Taskinfo shows CPU usage ~95%, but when I press "Ctrl+1" and enter "ponder" each time CPU usage falls down to 0%.
Now the problem is that it seems to be impossible to use InBetween, because there are no commands from Winboard to engine when it is not on move
Best regards,
George

...snip...

Now I got a nice answer from the author of Ktulu, Rahman Paidar in which
he told me that it is unfortunately impossible to switch off pondering in
this version. Well the good thing is that he will add this feature in
the next to come version!
Referring to what you wrote above does this mean that Chessmaster
sends "ponder" or "noponder" after every move otherwise I cant imagine
that it will run correctly in ponder off mode?
Best regards,
Günther

It could be that it stop pondering at any input eg. the 'dot' command from CM. Well maybe this is an interesting engine since so many are busy with it, I have to do a search for it to check it up.
Odd Gunnar

[Odd Gunnar Malin]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 12:40:21:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ktulu and pondering (answer from the author) geschrieben von: / posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 12:24:42:

I've played a little bit with Ktulu trying to disable pondering.
It seems that in order to prevent pondering it needs "ponder" command from GUI after each move it makes.
To ensure this, I've started Taskinfo and winboard match Ktulu vs. me. Time control was set to 30min/40 moves. After Ktulu made its move, it starts to ponder and Taskinfo shows CPU usage ~95%, but when I press "Ctrl+1" and enter "ponder" each time CPU usage falls down to 0%.
Now the problem is that it seems to be impossible to use InBetween, because there are no commands from Winboard to engine when it is not on move
Best regards,
George

...snip...

Now I got a nice answer from the author of Ktulu, Rahman Paidar in which
he told me that it is unfortunately impossible to switch off pondering in
this version. Well the good thing is that he will add this feature in
the next to come version!
Referring to what you wrote above does this mean that Chessmaster
sends "ponder" or "noponder" after every move otherwise I cant imagine
that it will run correctly in ponder off mode?
Best regards,
Günther

It could be that it stop pondering at any input eg. the 'dot' command from CM. Well maybe this is an interesting engine since so many are busy with it, I have to do a search for it to check it up.
Odd Gunnar

Ok, this was the case.
It also seems to stop the search when anything are in the keyboard buffer under normal search and resume it when a 'newline' character are received. Maybe someone (the author) should make a test to see if this harm the engine in normal game (key+enter=m.sec). And ev. give a warning in the readme file.
Wb2UCI should also give a 'dot' command if it is enable with 'ShowThinkingMove=true' so a two comp. match with and without ponder could be tested.
Odd Gunnar

[Odd Gunnar Malin]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 12:53:46:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ktulu and pondering geschrieben von: / posted by: Lyapko George at 11 April 2003 09:34:11:

I've played a little bit with Ktulu trying to disable pondering.
It seems that in order to prevent pondering it needs "ponder" command from GUI after each move it makes.

It could be time for an updated version of InBetween so I can suggest a new command:
command from client := %string% to server
would result in:
command from client to server
Maybe an expanded version could be useful too:
command from server := %string1% %string2% client
result in:
command from client

Ok, it would not solve your problem.
usermove := %append% \n ponder
could do it.
Too complicated?
Odd Gunnar

Maybe more generic would be:
Left values
%wild% - any strings
Ex.
%wild% testing - String ends with 'testing'
testing %wild% - String start with 'testing'
%wild% testing %wild% - 'testing' exist in string
Right values
%string[n]% - LValue string[word]
Ex.
%string% - the whole string
%string4% - Fourth word string.
Odd Gunnar

In a case of Ktulu(and old Tao) we also need a command from server to client after each move and I could imagine that we will need a command before each move.
George

I see it now (when I tested this engine) you have to send a command after the engines move, a double translation would help here:
[Server2Client]
move := dummy\nmove
[Server2Server]
dummy := dummy
Odd Gunnar

[Keith]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Keith at 23 April 2003 15:15:02:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Ktulu and pondering geschrieben von: / posted by: Odd Gunnar Malin at 11 April 2003 08:36:22:




Player Score Ruf Del Bar Ktu
1: Ruffian1.0.1 7.0 / 9 XXX 1=0 111 11=
2: Delfi4.1 5.5 / 9 0=1 XXX =1= 110
3: Baron 0.99.5 3.5 / 9 000 =0= XXX 1=1
4: Ktulu3.4b 2.0 / 9 00= 001 0=0 XXX

18 games: +6 =5 -7

I've played a little bit with Ktulu trying to disable pondering.
It seems that in order to prevent pondering it needs "ponder" command from GUI after each move it makes.

It could be time for an updated version of InBetween so I can suggest a new command:
command from client := %string% to server
would result in:
command from client to server
Maybe an expanded version could be useful too:
command from server := %string1% %string2% client
result in:
command from client
Any other suggestion?
Automatic response
[Client2Client]
[Server2Server]
Ex. of use.
[Client2Client]
protover2 := feature setboard=1
to tell a gui that a wbI engine support setboard.

Odd Gunnar

[Keith Kaplon]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Keith Kaplon at 23 April 2003 15:21:03:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Tourney geschrieben von: / posted by: Keith at 23 April 2003 15:15:02:

Played on Pentium III 700 mgz 256 MB RAM under Arena, with ponder off.Time limit 8 min 4 sec blitz. 3 round round robin. Quotes in previous post were not intended. Hash size 32MB.



Player Score Ruf Del Bar Ktu
1: Ruffian1.0.1 7.0 / 9 XXX 1=0 111 11=
2: Delfi4.1 5.5 / 9 0=1 XXX =1= 110
3: Baron 0.99.5 3.5 / 9 000 =0= XXX 1=1
4: Ktulu3.4b 2.0 / 9 00= 001 0=0 XXX

18 games: +6 =5 -7