The truth about Deep - 9

[Thomas Mayer]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 18:31:25:

Hi,
just take a look here: http://www.quarkchess.de/html/deep9_1.html
Greets, Thomas

[Kurt Utzinger]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Kurt Utzinger at 14 March 2003 18:39:34:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: The truth about Deep - 9 geschrieben von: / posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 18:31:25:

Hi,
just take a look here: http://www.quarkchess.de/html/deep9_1.html
Greets, Thomas

Just unbelievable ...
Kurt

[U.Tuerke]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: U.Tuerke at 14 March 2003 18:41:08:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: The truth about Deep - 9 geschrieben von: / posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 18:31:25:

Hi,
just take a look here: http://www.quarkchess.de/html/deep9_1.html
Greets, Thomas

Good work, Thomas.
IMHO, that's absolutely convincing.
If Dennis had changed only a few parameters slightly, the proof would become much more difficult. It seems, he didn't dare to. May be, he had not understood the architecture of Pepito.
Uli

[Thomas Mayer]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 18:51:49:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: The truth about Deep - 9 geschrieben von: / posted by: U.Tuerke at 14 March 2003 18:41:08:

Hi Uli,

If Dennis had changed only a few parameters slightly, the proof would become
much more difficult. It seems, he didn't dare to. May be, he had not
understood the architecture of Pepito.

which is really not easy, the Pepito source is fully in spanish... when you have no idea about that language you have nearly no chance to understand anything there... Anyway, since Crafty-clones are out at the moment, Pepito seems to get the role of the mostly cloned engine... What a shame...
Greets, Thomas

[Omid David]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Omid David at 14 March 2003 18:56:21:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: The truth about Deep - 9 geschrieben von: / posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 18:31:25:

Hi,
just take a look here: http://www.quarkchess.de/html/deep9_1.html
Greets, Thomas
Especially how he represents black pieces. With a “*” in front of them. Do
you know any other engine which is doing that?

What you've written is pretty much unassailable. You can also use the tool "strings.exe" which extracts all the strings from a binary. Run it on both Pepito and Deep and you will get the same strings.
P.S. just one point; you've written:
Yes! Crafty, Genesis, just to name a few. Do you have a better suggestion?


http://www.cs.biu.ac.il/~davoudo

[Dimitris Poulos]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dimitris Poulos at 14 March 2003 19:02:55:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: The truth about Deep - 9 geschrieben von: / posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 18:31:25:

What was this guy Denis trying to do? He was just passing his time changing texts in Pepito? It looks funny and ridiculous.

[Matthias Gemuh]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Matthias Gemuh at 14 March 2003 19:12:39:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: The truth about Deep - 9 geschrieben von: / posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 18:31:25:

Hi,
just take a look here: http://www.quarkchess.de/html/deep9_1.html
Greets, Thomas

Thanks, Thomas.
This proves everything.
I really enjoyed the attempts of the want-to-be chess author to eliminate
traces of Pepito by renaming variables and trying to change node count.
Output in Spanish and use of spanish variables by a German is simply nice .
/Matthias.

[Sune Fischer]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Sune Fischer at 14 March 2003 19:16:57:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Great Proof !! geschrieben von: / posted by: Matthias Gemuh at 14 March 2003 19:12:39:

Hi,
just take a look here: http://www.quarkchess.de/html/deep9_1.html
Greets, Thomas

Thanks, Thomas.
This proves everything.
I really enjoyed the attempts of the want-to-be chess author to eliminate
traces of Pepito by renaming variables and trying to change node count.
Output in Spanish and use of spanish variables by a German is simply nice .
/Matthias.

Hihi, man can you believe this??
What a ferkin' loser!
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, I think I will laugh, this guy is just too stupid for me.
-S.

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Uri Blass at 14 March 2003 19:21:51:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Great Proof !! geschrieben von: / posted by: Sune Fischer at 14 March 2003 19:16:57:

Hi,
just take a look here: http://www.quarkchess.de/html/deep9_1.html
Greets, Thomas

Thanks, Thomas.
This proves everything.
I really enjoyed the attempts of the want-to-be chess author to eliminate
traces of Pepito by renaming variables and trying to change node count.
Output in Spanish and use of spanish variables by a German is simply nice .
/Matthias.

Hihi, man can you believe this??
What a ferkin' loser!
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, I think I will laugh, this guy is just too stupid for me.
-S.

I do not know
I can think of the possibility that the guy simply hates the real Denis Grafen and did all of this only to give the real Denis Grafen a bad name.
Is there a proof for the identity of the guy.
Uri

[Thomas Mayer]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 19:23:22:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: The truth about Deep - 9 geschrieben von: / posted by: Omid David at 14 March 2003 18:56:21:

Hi Omid,

What you've written is pretty much unassailable. You can also use the
tool "strings.exe" which extracts all the strings from a binary. Run it on
both Pepito and Deep and you will get the same strings.
P.S. just one point; you've written:

Especially how he represents black pieces. With a “*” in front of them. Do
you know any other engine which is doing that?

Yes! Crafty, Genesis, just to name a few. Do you have a better suggestion?

that's not possible, Denis has hidden the strings - either maybe by compress the engine or in any other way, I don't know - again, I don't know any other winboard or uci engine, even commercials where you can't extract the strings from... you ?
well, many uses lowercases... Quark does somethink like "BK" "WK" - I was never satisfied with that... and when you take an exact look you will see that it is anyway slightly different from crafty's output. Each field is one space longer... For itself that would prove nothing at all... But all those facts... And at least the analysis... Which make me 100% sure ! MORE then 100% - especially because I have some more facts if needed...
Greets, Thomas

[Andreas Herrmann]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Andreas Herrmann at 14 March 2003 19:23:44:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: The truth about Deep - 9 geschrieben von: / posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 18:31:25:

Hi,
just take a look here: http://www.quarkchess.de/html/deep9_1.html
Greets, Thomas

Hi Thomas,
good work by you!! And a very stupid way by D.G. to clone an engine and sell it as an own development. Each beginner in programming would do it in a few hours better.
It seems he has absolutely no idea about chess programming and programming at all. I'm happy that he was not in Paderborn, because it would have been a laugh number.
But all in all i don't understand why people do this. They have nothing from that. Is it funny to look, how another engine plays chess, but with a changed name????????????????????????????????
I remember also to a game in Leos tournament where an engine plays an absolut same game than TSCP? I would bet that this is never possible, if it's not a 100% clone.

a headshaking
Andreas

PS: Are you ready with your epd2wb tests?

[Sune Fischer]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Sune Fischer at 14 March 2003 19:31:09:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Great Proof !! geschrieben von: / posted by: Uri Blass at 14 March 2003 19:21:51:

Hi,
just take a look here: http://www.quarkchess.de/html/deep9_1.html
Greets, Thomas

Thanks, Thomas.
This proves everything.
I really enjoyed the attempts of the want-to-be chess author to eliminate
traces of Pepito by renaming variables and trying to change node count.
Output in Spanish and use of spanish variables by a German is simply nice .
/Matthias.

Hihi, man can you believe this??
What a ferkin' loser!
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, I think I will laugh, this guy is just too stupid for me.
-S.

I do not know
I can think of the possibility that the guy simply hates the real Denis Grafen and did all of this only to give the real Denis Grafen a bad name.
Is there a proof for the identity of the guy.
Uri

I don't know what his real name is, but I'm talking about that guy in question who cloned Pepito.
He is probably not 33 as stated, but really some 11 year old trying to play a trick on us.
If he is smart enough (highly questionable though, given the facts up until now) he used an alias.
I don't think it matters much anyway, I doubt he is going to jail for this.
-S.

[Dimitris Poulos]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dimitris Poulos at 14 March 2003 19:38:07:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Great Proof !! geschrieben von: / posted by: Sune Fischer at 14 March 2003 19:31:09:

Searching Google you can find web pages about a taekwondo school he has.
He is also suposed to have 4 dans. But this link doesn't work anymore.

[Thomas Mayer]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 19:40:37:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Great Proof !! geschrieben von: / posted by: Uri Blass at 14 March 2003 19:21:51:

Hi Uri,

I do not know
I can think of the possibility that the guy simply hates the real Denis
Grafen and did all of this only to give the real Denis Grafen a bad name.
Is there a proof for the identity of the guy.

Go to denic.de, enter the WhoIs - section, enter dg-tkd.de - that was the site Denis published his news about Deep ... You will get some info about the owner of that site.
OWNER: GRAFEN Communications
Administrator: Denis Grafen
there is also the adress... -> usually those stuff is proven before you get your own domain... So I think our Mr. Grafen is definitely the same Mr. Grafen that cloned Pepito. Interesting that there is a company behind... Maybe his customers are also interested in his behaviours, I wonder ?!
Greets, Thomas

[Sune Fischer]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Sune Fischer at 14 March 2003 19:43:25:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Great Proof !! geschrieben von: / posted by: Dimitris Poulos at 14 March 2003 19:38:07:

Searching Google you can find web pages about a taekwondo school he has.
He is also suposed to have 4 dans. But this link doesn't work anymore.

But like Uri said, how do know that Denis Grafen is Denis Grafen?
Denis Grafen could be a random alias, someone out there is likely to carry the name.
Or the other possibility, that the man commited fraud in his own name.
Doesn't really change what happened.
-S.

[S. Voigt]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: S. Voigt at 14 March 2003 19:48:06:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Great Proof !! geschrieben von: / posted by: Sune Fischer at 14 March 2003 19:31:09:

Hi,
just take a look here: http://www.quarkchess.de/html/deep9_1.html
Greets, Thomas

Thanks, Thomas.
This proves everything.
I really enjoyed the attempts of the want-to-be chess author to eliminate
traces of Pepito by renaming variables and trying to change node count.
Output in Spanish and use of spanish variables by a German is simply nice .
/Matthias.

Hihi, man can you believe this??
What a ferkin' loser!
I don't know whether to laugh or cry, I think I will laugh, this guy is just too stupid for me.
-S.

I do not know
I can think of the possibility that the guy simply hates the real Denis Grafen and did all of this only to give the real Denis Grafen a bad name.
Is there a proof for the identity of the guy.
Uri

I don't know what his real name is, but I'm talking about that guy in question who cloned Pepito.
He is probably not 33 as stated, but really some 11 year old trying to play a trick on us.
If he is smart enough (highly questionable though, given the facts up until now) he used an alias.
I don't think it matters much anyway, I doubt he is going to jail for this.
-S.

From:http://www.iecg.info/members/2002/2002_dec.htm
DENIS GRAFEN, (GER), 2200, lives in NRW, Germany where he is a Senior System Engineer. He is 33 years old and he has played chess since he was eight. His father taught him how to play and now he has been in a local chess club for eight years. He wants “to play chess with people from all over the world.” In his “leisure time” he does “Taekwondo,” a Korean martial art. His current ELO is 2393 and his DWZ is 2373.
Why not write a nice message to his guestbook, which is still online
http://www.dg-tkd.webhop.net/
To the picture: Is this the guy?:
1st one on the left, from:
...
The link to the photo has been removed by me.
Volker

[Omid David]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Omid David at 14 March 2003 20:00:34:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: The truth about Deep - 9 geschrieben von: / posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 19:23:22:

Hi Omid,

What you've written is pretty much unassailable. You can also use the
tool "strings.exe" which extracts all the strings from a binary. Run it on
both Pepito and Deep and you will get the same strings.
P.S. just one point; you've written:

Especially how he represents black pieces. With a “*” in front of them. Do
you know any other engine which is doing that?

Yes! Crafty, Genesis, just to name a few. Do you have a better suggestion?

that's not possible, Denis has hidden the strings - either maybe by compress the engine or in any other way, I don't know - again, I don't know any other winboard or uci engine, even commercials where you can't extract the strings from... you ?
well, many uses lowercases... Quark does somethink like "BK" "WK" - I was never satisfied with that... and when you take an exact look you will see that it is anyway slightly different from crafty's output. Each field is one space longer... For itself that would prove nothing at all... But all those facts... And at least the analysis... Which make me 100% sure ! MORE then 100% - especially because I have some more facts if needed...
Greets, Thomas

I have noticed several programs (not chess engines) which do manage to hide the strings. I don't know how exactly that is done, but one primitive method could be seperating the chars of a string, e.g.,
printf("%c%c%c%c%c%c\n", 'r', 'e', 's', 'i', 'g', 'n');
instead of
printf("resign\n");
But there should be better ways to change the whole binary at once.
Maybe at least Denis could contribute something by telling us how he has done that

[Slobodan R. Stojanovic]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Slobodan R. Stojanovic at 14 March 2003 20:03:54:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: The truth about Deep - 9 geschrieben von: / posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 18:31:25:

Hi,
just take a look here: http://www.quarkchess.de/html/deep9_1.html
Greets, Thomas

[José Fabiano]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: José Fabiano at 14 March 2003 20:21:42:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: First one on the left... geschrieben von: / posted by: S. Voigt at 14 March 2003 19:48:06:


Another photo of this Denis Grafen can be found here ==>
...

The link to the photo has been removed by me.
Volker

[Volker Pittlik]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Volker Pittlik at 14 March 2003 20:24:46:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Great Proof !! geschrieben von: / posted by: Thomas Mayer at 14 March 2003 19:40:37:

...

Go to denic.de, enter the WhoIs - section, enter dg-tkd.de - that was the site Denis published his news about Deep ... You will get some info about the owner of that site.
OWNER: GRAFEN Communications
Administrator: Denis Grafen
there is also the adress... -> usually those stuff is proven before you get your own domain... So I think our Mr. Grafen is definitely the same Mr. Grafen that cloned Pepito. Interesting that there is a company behind... Maybe his customers are also interested in his behaviours, I wonder ?!

Hi Thomas,
congrats to your prove which is convincing IMHO.
I've inspected the websites of this company behind the URLs. Suspicious IMO: dubious links to whatever picture services, awful design, 3rd-class fotos..., but please don't let us get to far. Publishing personal data (addresses and so on) is not allowed by Parsimony. I think deep is out of the game now. I hope the "author" is going to learn his lesson.
Volker