Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon

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Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon

Postby Mainflame » 31 May 2003, 01:20

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mainflame at 31 May 2003 02:20:59:

I don't know if this problem has been discussed before. I did a search but it didn't turn up anything.
The problem is easily simulated if you let the engines play White. It can also be simulated when the programs play black. Engines are set to use the opening books.
1. Engines play 1. e4 or 1. d4
2. You move 1. ...Nc6
3. Then move 2. ...Nb8
4. Repeat the knight moves
5. Engines will draw with 3-move repetition
Are there any other engines which show similiar bug?
Mainflame
 

Re: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon

Postby Richard Pijl » 31 May 2003, 01:27

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Richard Pijl at 31 May 2003 02:27:43:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Mainflame at 31 May 2003 02:20:59:
I don't know if this problem has been discussed before. I did a search but it didn't turn up anything.
The problem is easily simulated if you let the engines play White. It can also be simulated when the programs play black. Engines are set to use the opening books.
1. Engines play 1. e4 or 1. d4
2. You move 1. ...Nc6
3. Then move 2. ...Nb8
4. Repeat the knight moves
5. Engines will draw with 3-move repetition
Are there any other engines which show similiar bug?
This can happen with engine that store their book by positions instead of trees.
Early versions of the Baron had the same bug. Since someone used this on ICC to get a draw from the Baron, the Baron doesn't play repetitions while in book.
Richard.
Richard Pijl
 

Re: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon

Postby Telmo Escobar » 31 May 2003, 04:32

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Telmo Escobar at 31 May 2003 05:32:44:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Mainflame at 31 May 2003 02:20:59:
I don't know if this problem has been discussed before. I did a search but it didn't turn up anything.
The problem is easily simulated if you let the engines play White. It can also be simulated when the programs play black. Engines are set to use the opening books.
1. Engines play 1. e4 or 1. d4
2. You move 1. ...Nc6
3. Then move 2. ...Nb8
4. Repeat the knight moves
5. Engines will draw with 3-move repetition
[Event "Test"]
[Site "Athlon-122"]
[Date "2003.05.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Pharaon 2.62"]
[Black "Escobar,T"]
[Result "*"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. d4 Nc6 2. e4 Nb8 3. Nc3 Nc6 4. d5 Nb8 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. dxc6
*
No bug so far -that is, no bug for Pharaon, this of course isn't one of my best games
Telmo Escobar
 

Bingo! Poor Nejmet

Postby Telmo Escobar » 31 May 2003, 04:36

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Telmo Escobar at 31 May 2003 05:36:24:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Mainflame at 31 May 2003 02:20:59:
I don't know if this problem has been discussed before. I did a search but it didn't turn up anything.
The problem is easily simulated if you let the engines play White. It can also be simulated when the programs play black. Engines are set to use the opening books.
1. Engines play 1. e4 or 1. d4
2. You move 1. ...Nc6
3. Then move 2. ...Nb8
4. Repeat the knight moves
5. Engines will draw with 3-move repetition
Are there any other engines which show similiar bug?
[Event "The Famous Stupid Game"]
[Site "Athlon-1200"]
[Date "2003.05.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Nejmet_3.06"]
[Black "Escobar,T"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 Nb8 3. Ng1 Nc6 4. d4 Nb8 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Ng1 Nb8 7. Nc3 Nc6
8. Nb1 Nb8 9. Bf4 Nc6 10. Bc1
1/2-1/2
Telmo Escobar
 

Amy's turn

Postby Telmo » 31 May 2003, 04:41

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Telmo at 31 May 2003 05:41:38:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Mainflame at 31 May 2003 02:20:59:

[Event "More Fun"]
[Site "Athlon-1200"]
[Date "2003.05.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Amy-08m"]
[Black "Escobar,T"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 Nb8 3. Nf3 Nc6 4. Ng1 Nb8 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Nb1 Nb8 7. Bd3 Nc6
8. Bf1
1/2-1/2
Telmo
 

Amateur

Postby Telmo » 31 May 2003, 04:48

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Telmo at 31 May 2003 05:48:05:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Mainflame at 31 May 2003 02:20:59:

[Event "More Fun"]
[Site "Athlon-1200"]
[Date "2003.05.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Amateur 2.47"]
[Black "Doesn't Matter Who"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. d4 Nc6 2. Nf3 Nb8 3. Ng1 Nc6 4. e4 Nb8 5. e5 Nc6 6. Nf3 Nb8 7. Ng1 Nc6
8. Nf3 Nb8 9. Ng1
1/2-1/2
PS. No bug for Amy, Amyan, Ruffian.
Telmo
 

Exchess

Postby Telmo » 31 May 2003, 05:07

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Telmo at 31 May 2003 06:07:30:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Mainflame at 31 May 2003 02:20:59:

[Event "Wonders of the XXI Century"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2003.05.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Exchess"]
[Black "Let's Say Anonymous"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 Nb8 3. Ng1 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nb8 5. Ng1 Nc6 6. Nf3 Nb8 7. Ng1 Nc6
8. d4 Nb8 9. Nf3 Nc6 10. Ng1 Nb8 11. Nc3 Nc6 12. Nb1
1/2-1/2

PS. No bug in Arasan, Baron, Bionic, Comet, LambChop, Crafty, Delfi, Dragon
Telmo
 

A different bug in Little Goliath

Postby Telmo » 31 May 2003, 05:29

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Telmo at 31 May 2003 06:29:22:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Mainflame at 31 May 2003 02:20:59:

[Event "The Eternal Game"]
[Site "Athlon-1200"]
[Date "2003.05.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "LG2000v39wb"]
[Black "Anonymous Please"]
[Result "*"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 Nb8 3. e5 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nb8
*
and White doesn't reply. You could score a fine win on time using this sensational defense.
PS. No bug in Francesca, Green Light Chess, Gromit, King of Kings, Knight Dreamer, Knightx, Ktulu, Leila
Telmo
 

Re: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon

Postby Andreas Herrmann » 31 May 2003, 05:38

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Andreas Herrmann at 31 May 2003 06:38:46:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Richard Pijl at 31 May 2003 02:27:43:
I don't know if this problem has been discussed before. I did a search but it didn't turn up anything.
The problem is easily simulated if you let the engines play White. It can also be simulated when the programs play black. Engines are set to use the opening books.
1. Engines play 1. e4 or 1. d4
2. You move 1. ...Nc6
3. Then move 2. ...Nb8
4. Repeat the knight moves
5. Engines will draw with 3-move repetition
Are there any other engines which show similiar bug?
This can happen with engine that store their book by positions instead of trees.
Early versions of the Baron had the same bug. Since someone used this on ICC to get a draw from the Baron, the Baron doesn't play repetitions while in book.
Richard.
Hi Richard,
i have also only a positional book, but Holmes would never play Ng1, and this ssems to be the bug and not the opening book. In the games from Telmo, various engines seems to have absolutely the same bug. Very curious that various engines are playing Ng1.
So i have checked the engines with open source, which are older than Nejmet and the other ones:
Arasan,GNU,Phalanx,Faile and Crafty doesn't have these bug but Exchess has absolutely the same bug.
Andreas
Andreas Herrmann
 

A tribute for Sjeng's combative mood

Postby Telmo » 31 May 2003, 05:49

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Telmo at 31 May 2003 06:49:58:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Mainflame at 31 May 2003 02:20:59:

[Event "Advances in Opening Theory"]
[Site "Athlon-1200"]
[Date "2003.05.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Sjeng 12.13"]
[Black "Anonymous Please"]
[Result "*"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. d4 Nc6 2. Nf3 Nb8 3. Ng1 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nb8 5. e4
*
So Sjeng avoids the trap just because it tries to avoid 3th repetition draws.
PS. No bug in Movei, Pepito, Phalanx, Quark, Scidlet, SOS, Terra, Thinker, Tao, Yace
Telmo
 

Yin 5.4

Postby Telmo » 31 May 2003, 05:53

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Telmo at 31 May 2003 06:53:24:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Mainflame at 31 May 2003 02:20:59:

[Event "More Theory"]
[Site "Athlon-1200"]
[Date "2003.05.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Yin54"]
[Black "Anonymous I Hope"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nc3 Nb8 3. Nb1 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nb8 5. Ng1 Nc6 6. Nc3 Nb8 7. Nb1
1/2-1/2
Telmo
 

Zchess

Postby Telmo » 31 May 2003, 05:55

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Telmo at 31 May 2003 06:55:22:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Mainflame at 31 May 2003 02:20:59:

[Event "More Theory"]
[Site "Athlon-1200"]
[Date "2003.05.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Zchess"]
[Black "Rather Bored Tester"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 Nb8 3. Ng1 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nb8 5. Ng1
1/2-1/2
Telmo
 

Re: A different bug in Little Goliath

Postby Dr.WAEL DEEB » 31 May 2003, 07:20

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dr.WAEL DEEB at 31 May 2003 08:20:27:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: A different bug in Little Goliath geschrieben von: / posted by: Telmo at 31 May 2003 06:29:22:
[Event "The Eternal Game"]
[Site "Athlon-1200"]
[Date "2003.05.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "LG2000v39wb"]
[Black "Anonymous Please"]
[Result "*"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 Nb8 3. e5 Nc6 4. Nf3 Nb8
*
and White doesn't reply. You could score a fine win on time using this sensational defense.
PS. No bug in Francesca, Green Light Chess, Gromit, King of Kings, Knight Dreamer, Knightx, Ktulu, Leila
Hi,
In my opinion if the engine lose a game on time then it has a serious bug!I'll not be happy with this win!Try to take a win over it positionaly or tactically!
Regards,
Dr.WAEL DEEB
Dr.WAEL DEEB
 

Re: Bingo! Poor Nejmet

Postby Dr.WAEL DEEB » 31 May 2003, 07:23

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dr.WAEL DEEB at 31 May 2003 08:23:08:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Bingo! Poor Nejmet geschrieben von: / posted by: Telmo Escobar at 31 May 2003 05:36:24:
I don't know if this problem has been discussed before. I did a search but it didn't turn up anything.
The problem is easily simulated if you let the engines play White. It can also be simulated when the programs play black. Engines are set to use the opening books.
1. Engines play 1. e4 or 1. d4
2. You move 1. ...Nc6
3. Then move 2. ...Nb8
4. Repeat the knight moves
5. Engines will draw with 3-move repetition
Are there any other engines which show similiar bug?
[Event "The Famous Stupid Game"]
[Site "Athlon-1200"]
[Date "2003.05.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Nejmet_3.06"]
[Black "Escobar,T"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 Nb8 3. Ng1 Nc6 4. d4 Nb8 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. Ng1 Nb8 7. Nc3 Nc6
8. Nb1 Nb8 9. Bf4 Nc6 10. Bc1
1/2-1/2
Hi,
Bingo??Do you really get happy when you make such a silly draw!?
Regards,
Dr.WAEL DEEB
Dr.WAEL DEEB
 

Re: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon

Postby Uri Blass » 31 May 2003, 08:21

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Uri Blass at 31 May 2003 09:21:16:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Richard Pijl at 31 May 2003 02:27:43:
I don't know if this problem has been discussed before. I did a search but it didn't turn up anything.
The problem is easily simulated if you let the engines play White. It can also be simulated when the programs play black. Engines are set to use the opening books.
1. Engines play 1. e4 or 1. d4
2. You move 1. ...Nc6
3. Then move 2. ...Nb8
4. Repeat the knight moves
5. Engines will draw with 3-move repetition
Are there any other engines which show similiar bug?
This can happen with engine that store their book by positions instead of trees.
No
Engines do not need trees.
position and move to play is enough.
This can happen only if engines have a book of positions without moves.
Book that tells the engine a move in every position will cause no problem.
My book is more simple and today movei is out of book if you change order of moves because I did not do the hard work of programming what I want to do but in the design decision I decided that a book should have a list of positions and moves.
Uri
Uri Blass
 

Re: Bingo! Poor Nejmet

Postby Mogens Larsen » 31 May 2003, 08:30

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Mogens Larsen at 31 May 2003 09:30:06:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Bingo! Poor Nejmet geschrieben von: / posted by: Dr.WAEL DEEB at 31 May 2003 08:23:08:
Hi,
Bingo??Do you really get happy when you make such a silly draw!?
I suspect it refers to reproducing a reported bug, not happiness in achieving draws as such.
Regards,
Mogens
Mogens Larsen
 

Re: Bingo! Poor Nejmet

Postby Dr.WAEL DEEB » 31 May 2003, 09:09

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Dr.WAEL DEEB at 31 May 2003 10:09:14:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Bingo! Poor Nejmet geschrieben von: / posted by: Mogens Larsen at 31 May 2003 09:30:06:
Hi,
Bingo??Do you really get happy when you make such a silly draw!?
I suspect it refers to reproducing a reported bug, not happiness in achieving draws as such.
Regards,
Mogens
Hi Mogens,
If it so,then I apologize!My aim is not to upset Telmo!
Regards,
Dr.WAEL DEEB
Dr.WAEL DEEB
 

Re: Amateur

Postby Will Singleton » 31 May 2003, 09:44

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Will Singleton at 31 May 2003 10:44:41:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Amateur geschrieben von: / posted by: Telmo at 31 May 2003 05:48:05:
[Event "More Fun"]
[Site "Athlon-1200"]
[Date "2003.05.31"]
[Round "-"]
[White "Amateur 2.47"]
[Black "Doesn't Matter Who"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[TimeControl "300"]
1. d4 Nc6 2. Nf3 Nb8 3. Ng1 Nc6 4. e4 Nb8 5. e5 Nc6 6. Nf3 Nb8 7. Ng1 Nc6
8. Nf3 Nb8 9. Ng1
1/2-1/2
PS. No bug for Amy , Amyan, Ruffian.
Yeah, I noticed that someone did that to me on ICC about 3 years ago. It's an easy fix, but I actually kind of like leaving it there.
Will
Will Singleton
 

Re: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon

Postby Richard Pijl » 31 May 2003, 10:32

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Richard Pijl at 31 May 2003 11:32:36:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Uri Blass at 31 May 2003 09:21:16:
I don't know if this problem has been discussed before. I did a search but it didn't turn up anything.
The problem is easily simulated if you let the engines play White. It can also be simulated when the programs play black. Engines are set to use the opening books.
1. Engines play 1. e4 or 1. d4
2. You move 1. ...Nc6
3. Then move 2. ...Nb8
4. Repeat the knight moves
5. Engines will draw with 3-move repetition
Are there any other engines which show similiar bug?
This can happen with engine that store their book by positions instead of trees.
No
Engines do not need trees.
position and move to play is enough.
This can happen only if engines have a book of positions without moves.
Book that tells the engine a move in every position will cause no problem.
My book is more simple and today movei is out of book if you change order of moves because I did not do the hard work of programming what I want to do but in the design decision I decided that a book should have a list of positions and moves.
Uri
In my opinion that is a tree where transpositions are supported ...
Richard.
Richard Pijl
 

Re: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon

Postby Richard Pijl » 31 May 2003, 10:35

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Richard Pijl at 31 May 2003 11:35:53:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Opening Bug in Nejmet and Pharaon geschrieben von: / posted by: Andreas Herrmann at 31 May 2003 06:38:46:
I don't know if this problem has been discussed before. I did a search but it didn't turn up anything.
The problem is easily simulated if you let the engines play White. It can also be simulated when the programs play black. Engines are set to use the opening books.
1. Engines play 1. e4 or 1. d4
2. You move 1. ...Nc6
3. Then move 2. ...Nb8
4. Repeat the knight moves
5. Engines will draw with 3-move repetition
Are there any other engines which show similiar bug?
This can happen with engine that store their book by positions instead of trees.
Early versions of the Baron had the same bug. Since someone used this on ICC to get a draw from the Baron, the Baron doesn't play repetitions while in book.
Richard.
Hi Richard,
i have also only a positional book, but Holmes would never play Ng1, and this ssems to be the bug and not the opening book. In the games from Telmo, various engines seems to have absolutely the same bug. Very curious that various engines are playing Ng1.
So i have checked the engines with open source, which are older than Nejmet and the other ones:
Arasan,GNU,Phalanx,Faile and Crafty doesn't have these bug but Exchess has absolutely the same bug.
Andreas
The position after 1.e4 occurs in the book. After 1..Nc6 2.Nf3 Nb8 then 3.Ng1 would probably be the only move that leads to a book position. Unless repetitions are excluded...
Richard.
Richard Pijl
 

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