Startdates promotion tourneys WBEC Ridderkerk.

[Leo Dijksman]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Leo Dijksman at 08 January 2004 18:40:35:

Schedule of the coming promotion/relegation matches:
Updates allowed until one day before the startdate of the tourney!
Promo tourney A: - Dual MP2400 - startdate: when the Premier division is finished!
1 Rank 15 of the current running Premier
2 Rank 16 of the current running Premier
3 Rank 17 of the current running Premier
4 Patzer 3.61
5 Amyan 1.592
6 Leila 0.53h
First 3 to the Premier, 4, 5 and 6 to the 1st division!

Promo tourney B: - Dual MP2600 - startdate: when the 2nd Division is finished!
1 Phalanx XXII
2 Thinker 4.4m
3 Arasan 7.3
4 Rank 2 of the current running 2nd division
5 Rank 3 of the current running 2nd division
6 Rank 4 of the current running 2nd division
First 3 to the 1st div, 4, 5 and 6 to the 2nd division!

Promo tourney C: - Dual MP2200 - startdate: when the 2nd Division is finished!
1 Rank 15 of the current running 2nd division
2 Rank 16 of the current running 2nd division
3 Rank 17 of the current running 2nd division
4 Frenzee 146
5 Terra 3.2
6 Cerebro 1.23
First 3 to the 2nd div, 4, 5 and 6 to the 3rd division!

Promo tourney D: - Dual P3-1266Mhz - startdate: when Promo E is finished!
1 Averno 0.58
2 Chispa 3.96
3 Holmes 0.8.29i32 (BlackBishop?)
4 Fortress 1.62
5 Asterisk 0.4b
6 Sunsetter C10
First 3 to the 3rd div, 4, 5 and 6 to the 4th division!

Promo tourney E: - Dual P3-1266Mhz - startdate: 11/01/2004!
1 BigLion 2.23f
2 LaDameBlanche 2.0c
3 Gerbil 0.2
4 Cilian 4.13
5 Sharper 0.17
6 Gully 2.15 pl10
First 3 to the 4th div, 4, 5 and 6 to the 5th division!

Promo tourney F - Dual P3-933Mhz - startdate: 11/01/2004!
1 RDChess 3.23
2 SnailChess 4.013
3 Mustang 2.67
4 Uragano 0.41
5 Adam 1.6
6 NoonianChess 3.6e
First 3 to the 5th div, 4, 5 and 6 to the 6th division!

Best wishes,
Leo.



WBEC Ridderkerk homepage.

[Igor Korshunov]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Igor Korshunov at 09 January 2004 05:34:05:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Startdates promotion tourneys WBEC Ridderkerk. geschrieben von: / posted by: Leo Dijksman at 08 January 2004 18:40:35:

Schedule of the coming promotion/relegation matches:
Updates allowed until one day before the startdate of the tourney!
Promo tourney A: - Dual MP2400 - startdate: when the Premier division is finished!
1 Rank 15 of the current running Premier
2 Rank 16 of the current running Premier
3 Rank 17 of the current running Premier
4 Patzer 3.61
5 Amyan 1.592
6 Leila 0.53h
First 3 to the Premier, 4, 5 and 6 to the 1st division!

Have you lost hope to get correct version of Tao?
So what is the reason that Leila will play, but not WildCat?
Results from 1st division:
WildCat and Leila both scored 36,5.
Private meeting:
WildCat - Leila - 2:2.
WildCat has 10 points against top4.
Leila has only 8 points.
I will be more happy if you have additional qualification match for promotion tourney.

Best regrads,
Igor

[Claudio Della Corte]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Claudio Della Corte at 09 January 2004 10:25:59:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Startdates promotion tourneys WBEC Ridderkerk. geschrieben von: / posted by: Leo Dijksman at 08 January 2004 18:40:35:

Schedule of the coming promotion/relegation matches:

[...]
Hello Leo, I can't understand how you are handling the fishings up due to the removal of some engines. You are promoting engines finished on top of lower divisions and that's out of the rules of the new setup. Of course you can do whatever you want, but if I were you I'd update the rules before, and also would avoid applying the changes to the ongoing season.
From your rules only the winner of a division has to be directly promoted, and only the second besides him has the right to promote directly to any upper division if some conditions are matched.
But now you are directly promoting 3 or 4 engines from any of the last 4 divisions, and that's a bit unfair for the last engines of the respective higher divisions, especially those that will be relegated due to possible new engines insertion.
Most of these engines should gain their promotion by winning the play-offs, but their are going to skip it, while their opponents (the last placed before the last of higher divisions) still have to play it.
The most incredible situation is in Division 4: 4 engines have already been promoted, so in the play-offs for for the 3/4 division only 2 of the 4th division will be able to promote, because there is the rule that the maximum number of promotions is 6. So, even if the 3 engines of 4th division finished in the first 3 places of the play-offs, only 2 of them would be promoted unless you pass over that rule.
My suggestion is to act like if there were no removals, play all the play-offs and promotion matches, and LATER remove the bad engines and adjust divisions for Season 7 according to that.
Regards,
Claudio

[Leo Dijksman]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Leo Dijksman at 09 January 2004 17:40:25:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Startdates promotion tourneys WBEC Ridderkerk. geschrieben von: / posted by: Claudio Della Corte at 09 January 2004 10:25:59:

Schedule of the coming promotion/relegation matches:

[...]
Hello Leo, I can't understand how you are handling the fishings up due to the removal of some engines. You are promoting engines finished on top of lower divisions and that's out of the rules of the new setup. Of course you can do whatever you want, but if I were you I'd update the rules before, and also would avoid applying the changes to the ongoing season.
From your rules only the winner of a division has to be directly promoted, and only the second besides him has the right to promote directly to any upper division if some conditions are matched.
But now you are directly promoting 3 or 4 engines from any of the last 4 divisions, and that's a bit unfair for the last engines of the respective higher divisions, especially those that will be relegated due to possible new engines insertion.
Most of these engines should gain their promotion by winning the play-offs, but their are going to skip it, while their opponents (the last placed before the last of higher divisions) still have to play it.
The most incredible situation is in Division 4: 4 engines have already been promoted, so in the play-offs for for the 3/4 division only 2 of the 4th division will be able to promote, because there is the rule that the maximum number of promotions is 6. So, even if the 3 engines of 4th division finished in the first 3 places of the play-offs, only 2 of them would be promoted unless you pass over that rule.
My suggestion is to act like if there were no removals, play all the play-offs and promotion matches, and LATER remove the bad engines and adjust divisions for Season 7 according to that.
Regards,
Claudio

Hi Claudio,
Have you looked at the "Promotion" page?
I dont see what you mean here, let play rank 2,3 and 4 of a division promotion tourney and then let rank 5 promote without playing for it??
Best wishes,
Leo.




WBEC Ridderkerk homepage.

[Claudio Della Corte]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Claudio Della Corte at 09 January 2004 20:05:42:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Startdates promotion tourneys WBEC Ridderkerk. geschrieben von: / posted by: Leo Dijksman at 09 January 2004 17:40:25:

Schedule of the coming promotion/relegation matches:

[...]
My suggestion is to act like if there were no removals, play all the play-offs and promotion matches, and LATER remove the bad engines and adjust divisions for Season 7 according to that.

Hi Claudio,
Have you looked at the "Promotion" page?
I dont see what you mean here, let play rank 2,3 and 4 of a division promotion tourney and then let rank 5 promote without playing for it??

Yes I did, and I noticed that there are many engines promoted without reason, at least according to the setup rules.
Losers of the play-offs should be fished up first in my opinion, 5th classified should come right after. Of course in case of the 3 engines coming from the lower division gaining all the 3 play-offs best places, you should consider 6th or 7th...
I'll make it clear with an example. Let's suppose we are between division X and division Y:
...
X12 -> Stays in X
X13 -> Hopes Y2,Y3,Y4 don't win the play-offs and X13 dosn't lose to Y5
X14 -> Hopes Y2,Y3,Y4 don't win the play-offs
X15 -> Play-offs (Z)
X16 -> Play-offs (Z)
X17 -> Play-offs (Z)
X18 -> Relegates to Y
Y1 -> Promotes to X
Y2 -> Play-offs (Z)
Y3 -> Play-offs (Z)
Y4 -> Play-offs (Z)
Y5 -> Hopes Y2,Y3,Y4 win the play-offs
Y6 -> Hopes Y2,Y3,Y4 win the play-offs and X13 loses to Y5
Y7 -> Stays in Y
...
After the Z play-offs is played, the ranking is the following:
X12
Y1
X13
X14
Z1
Z2
Z3
Z4 (this is the first that should fished up)
Z5
Z6
Y5
Y6
X18
Y7
if Z1,Z2,Z3 come all from division Y, and for example Y5 beats X14 and Y6 loses to X13 (most general case), the ranking becomes the following:
X12
Y1
X13
Z1
Z2
Z3
Y5
X14 (this is the first that should fished up)
Z4
Z5
Z6
Y6
X18
Y7
If you think about it, this way all players benefit from possible removals of higher placed engines, and not only the ones coming from lower divisions as it is now. It is fairer also considering the normal situation in which there are no removals and there are some new engines that steal places to high division engines finished at the bottom of the standings.
Regards,
Claudio

[Uri Blass]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Uri Blass at 09 January 2004 20:27:41:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Startdates promotion tourneys WBEC Ridderkerk. geschrieben von: / posted by: Claudio Della Corte at 09 January 2004 20:05:42:

Schedule of the coming promotion/relegation matches:

[...]
My suggestion is to act like if there were no removals, play all the play-offs and promotion matches, and LATER remove the bad engines and adjust divisions for Season 7 according to that.

Hi Claudio,
Have you looked at the "Promotion" page?
I dont see what you mean here, let play rank 2,3 and 4 of a division promotion tourney and then let rank 5 promote without playing for it??

Yes I did, and I noticed that there are many engines promoted without reason, at least according to the setup rules.
Losers of the play-offs should be fished up first in my opinion, 5th classified should come right after. Of course in case of the 3 engines coming from the lower division gaining all the 3 play-offs best places, you should consider 6th or 7th...
I'll make it clear with an example. Let's suppose we are between division X and division Y:
...
X12 -> Stays in X
X13 -> Hopes Y2,Y3,Y4 don't win the play-offs and X13 dosn't lose to Y5
X14 -> Hopes Y2,Y3,Y4 don't win the play-offs
X15 -> Play-offs (Z)
X16 -> Play-offs (Z)
X17 -> Play-offs (Z)
X18 -> Relegates to Y
Y1 -> Promotes to X
Y2 -> Play-offs (Z)
Y3 -> Play-offs (Z)
Y4 -> Play-offs (Z)
Y5 -> Hopes Y2,Y3,Y4 win the play-offs
Y6 -> Hopes Y2,Y3,Y4 win the play-offs and X13 loses to Y5
Y7 -> Stays in Y
...
After the Z play-offs is played, the ranking is the following:
X12
Y1
X13
X14
Z1
Z2
Z3
Z4 (this is the first that should fished up)
Z5
Z6
Y5
Y6
X18
Y7
if Z1,Z2,Z3 come all from division Y, and for example Y5 beats X14 and Y6 loses to X13 (most general case), the ranking becomes the following:
X12
Y1
X13
Z1
Z2
Z3
Y5
X14 (this is the first that should fished up)
Z4
Z5
Z6
Y6
X18
Y7
If you think about it, this way all players benefit from possible removals of higher placed engines, and not only the ones coming from lower divisions as it is now. It is fairer also considering the normal situation in which there are no removals and there are some new engines that steal places to high division engines finished at the bottom of the standings.
Regards,
Claudio

I think that today also the engines at places 15-17 earn by playing inferior opponents in the matches to survive.
Uri

[Leo Dijksman]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Leo Dijksman at 09 January 2004 21:53:03:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Startdates promotion tourneys WBEC Ridderkerk. geschrieben von: / posted by: Claudio Della Corte at 09 January 2004 20:05:42:

Schedule of the coming promotion/relegation matches:

[...]
My suggestion is to act like if there were no removals, play all the play-offs and promotion matches, and LATER remove the bad engines and adjust divisions for Season 7 according to that.

Hi Claudio,
Have you looked at the "Promotion" page?
I dont see what you mean here, let play rank 2,3 and 4 of a division promotion tourney and then let rank 5 promote without playing for it??

Yes I did, and I noticed that there are many engines promoted without reason, at least according to the setup rules.
Losers of the play-offs should be fished up first in my opinion, 5th classified should come right after. Of course in case of the 3 engines coming from the lower division gaining all the 3 play-offs best places, you should consider 6th or 7th...
I'll make it clear with an example. Let's suppose we are between division X and division Y:
...
X12 -> Stays in X
X13 -> Hopes Y2,Y3,Y4 don't win the play-offs and X13 dosn't lose to Y5
X14 -> Hopes Y2,Y3,Y4 don't win the play-offs
X15 -> Play-offs (Z)
X16 -> Play-offs (Z)
X17 -> Play-offs (Z)
X18 -> Relegates to Y
Y1 -> Promotes to X
Y2 -> Play-offs (Z)
Y3 -> Play-offs (Z)
Y4 -> Play-offs (Z)
Y5 -> Hopes Y2,Y3,Y4 win the play-offs
Y6 -> Hopes Y2,Y3,Y4 win the play-offs and X13 loses to Y5
Y7 -> Stays in Y
...
After the Z play-offs is played, the ranking is the following:
X12
Y1
X13
X14
Z1
Z2
Z3
Z4 (this is the first that should fished up)
Z5
Z6
Y5
Y6
X18
Y7
if Z1,Z2,Z3 come all from division Y, and for example Y5 beats X14 and Y6 loses to X13 (most general case), the ranking becomes the following:
X12
Y1
X13
Z1
Z2
Z3
Y5
X14 (this is the first that should fished up)
Z4
Z5
Z6
Y6
X18
Y7
If you think about it, this way all players benefit from possible removals of higher placed engines, and not only the ones coming from lower divisions as it is now. It is fairer also considering the normal situation in which there are no removals and there are some new engines that steal places to high division engines finished at the bottom of the standings.
Regards,
Claudio

I am not agree with you that the engines of the lower divisions make more profit, you seems to look at the direct promotions when you say that, but:
1.There is not any extra direct relegation.
2.The ranks 15-17 plays vs lower ranked engines as they should be normally(2,3 and 4) which makes the change to relegate smaller.
And they "empty" spots needs to be filled from below anyway, the most logical way seems (to me) to take the highest ranked engines from the first lower division first and let the others fight for it!?
Best wishes,
Leo.



WBEC Ridderkerk homepage.

[Claudio Della Corte]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Claudio Della Corte at 10 January 2004 11:42:32:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Startdates promotion tourneys WBEC Ridderkerk. geschrieben von: / posted by: Leo Dijksman at 09 January 2004 21:53:03:

I am not agree with you that the engines of the lower divisions make more profit, you seems to look at the direct promotions when you say that, but:
1.There is not any extra direct relegation.
2.The ranks 15-17 plays vs lower ranked engines as they should be normally(2,3 and 4) which makes the change to relegate smaller.
And they "empty" spots needs to be filled from below anyway, the most logical way seems (to me) to take the highest ranked engines from the first lower division first and let the others fight for it!?

Hello Leo,
I agree about the fact that engines playing the play-offs coming from the upper divisions will have a easier life facing weaker opponents (and I'm answering also to Uri here), but I'm talking about the rules, not the strength of the participants. It's out of question that engines coming from lower divisions are taking advantage by *rule*, the others not. And this rule has been inserted during the competition, not before.
You say that there is not any extra-relegation, but that's just because engines leaving the competition (the ones excluded by bugs) are less than the incoming ones (the new ones promoted with promotion matches in high divisions). If there weren't any excluded engines, there would have been some extra-relegations thank to the new promoted ones. And of course I would have made some objections about the extra-relegations as well...
Regards,
Claudio
P.S. My point is to be constructive with my objections. Your tournament setup is just great, and I'm shooting at the very little flaws I seem to notice.

[Leo Dijksman]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Leo Dijksman at 10 January 2004 11:49:34:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Startdates promotion tourneys WBEC Ridderkerk. geschrieben von: / posted by: Igor Korshunov at 09 January 2004 05:34:05:

Schedule of the coming promotion/relegation matches:
Updates allowed until one day before the startdate of the tourney!
Promo tourney A: - Dual MP2400 - startdate: when the Premier division is finished!
1 Rank 15 of the current running Premier
2 Rank 16 of the current running Premier
3 Rank 17 of the current running Premier
4 Patzer 3.61
5 Amyan 1.592
6 Leila 0.53h
First 3 to the Premier, 4, 5 and 6 to the 1st division!

Have you lost hope to get correct version of Tao?
So what is the reason that Leila will play, but not WildCat?
Results from 1st division:
WildCat and Leila both scored 36,5.
Private meeting:
WildCat - Leila - 2:2.
WildCat has 10 points against top4.
Leila has only 8 points.
I will be more happy if you have additional qualification match for promotion tourney.
Best regrads,
Igor

Tao is fixed!
The result of the last 1st division counts here ofcourse:
WBEC6 1st Division
MP2400, 2003.09.26 - 2003.11.22
Score SB Quar Tao Patz Amya Leil Wild Come AnMo Delf Pepi Fran Abro Post SOS Phal Thin Aras Knig
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1: Quark 2.05b 41.0 / 68 2700.0 XXXX 0=10 =0=0 1=1= 0111 0001 ==11 ==0= ==11 1111 0=11 101= 0101 =01= =0=1 1==0 1110 1111
2: Tao 5.4 39.5 / 68 2630.5 1=01 XXXX 1110 001= 0101 1001 0001 ==== 101= 1==1 01=1 1010 01== 1011 =011 0=11 =1=0 11=1
3: Patzer 3.61 39.0 / 68 2570.5 =1=1 0001 XXXX 000= =01= 001= 01== =1=1 001= =0=1 =0=1 0111 1=01 1=11 1101 110= 111= 110=
4: Amyan 1.59 38.0 / 68 2515.5 0=0= 110= 111= XXXX 0001 0=== ==1= 10== =00= 101= 1001 1=== 100= 1011 =1=1 1==1 01== 11=1
5: Leila 0.53h 36.5 / 68 2468.0 1000 1010 =10= 1110 XXXX 10== =010 01=0 11=0 1=10 0101 1==1 01== 11=1 1=11 =0== 01== 0001
6: WildCat 2.79 36.5 / 68 2464.0 1110 0110 110= 1=== 01== XXXX 0=01 100= 10=0 00=0 ==11 1=== 1101 1001 =101 001= =1=0 1101
7: Comet B.60 35.5 / 68 2417.0 ==00 1110 10== ==0= =101 1=10 XXXX =110 1=1= 1=01 1001 1001 1010 ==00 1=10 0011 0=01 1=0=
8: AnMon 5.22 35.5 / 68 2391.5 ==1= ==== =0=0 01== 10=1 011= =001 XXXX 1010 =101 1=== 0011 0==1 100= =01= 0=11 =001 =11=
9: Delfi 4.3 35.0 / 68 2325.5 ==00 010= 110= =11= 00=1 01=1 0=0= 0101 XXXX 0=0= 0=0= =10= 1100 1001 =011 1111 1==1 =101
10: Pepito 1.59 34.0 / 68 2241.5 0000 0==0 =1=0 010= 0=01 11=1 0=10 =010 1=1= XXXX 1=1= 1010 1110 0110 =00= 0=01 10=1 111=
11: FrancescaMAD 0.0.9 33.5 / 68 2227.0 1=00 10=0 =1=0 0110 1010 ==00 0110 0=== 1=1= 0=0= XXXX 0010 1000 1=11 10=0 11=1 1=10 ==11
12: Abrok 5.0 32.5 / 68 2184.5 010= 0101 1000 0=== 0==0 0=== 0110 1100 =01= 0101 1101 XXXX 1101 1100 ==01 1=== 100= 1==0
13: PostModernist 1007 32.0 / 68 2168.0 1010 10== 0=10 011= 10== 0010 0101 1==0 0011 0001 0111 0010 XXXX ==10 0010 110= 10=0 ==11
14: SOS 99.11.03 31.5 / 68 2094.0 =10= 0100 0=00 0100 00=0 0110 ==11 011= 0110 1001 0=00 0011 ==01 XXXX 11=1 ==10 =1=1 0110
15: Phalanx XXII 30.5 / 68 2036.5 =1=0 =100 0010 =0=0 0=00 =010 0=01 =10= =100 =11= 01=1 ==10 1101 00=0 XXXX ===0 0111 ==1=
16: Thinker 4.4h 30.0 / 68 2022.0 0==1 1=00 001= 0==0 =1== 110= 1100 1=00 0000 1=10 00=0 0=== 001= ==01 ===1 XXXX 01=1 ==1=
17: Arasan 7.1 28.0 / 68 1934.0 0001 =0=1 000= 10== 10== =0=1 1=10 =110 0==0 01=0 0=01 011= 01=1 =0=0 1000 10=0 XXXX 0100
18: KnightDreamer 3.2 23.5 / 68 1575.0 0000 00=0 001= 00=0 1110 0010 0=1= =00= =010 000= ==00 0==1 ==00 1001 ==0= ==0= 1011 XXXX
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
612 games: +246 =181 -185 *0
And Leila finished just above WildCat!
Best wishes,
Leo.



WBEC Ridderkerk homepage.

[Leo Dijksman]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Leo Dijksman at 10 January 2004 16:51:04:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Startdates promotion tourneys WBEC Ridderkerk. geschrieben von: / posted by: Claudio Della Corte at 10 January 2004 11:42:32:

I am not agree with you that the engines of the lower divisions make more profit, you seems to look at the direct promotions when you say that, but:
1.There is not any extra direct relegation.
2.The ranks 15-17 plays vs lower ranked engines as they should be normally(2,3 and 4) which makes the change to relegate smaller.
And they "empty" spots needs to be filled from below anyway, the most logical way seems (to me) to take the highest ranked engines from the first lower division first and let the others fight for it!?

Hello Leo,
I agree about the fact that engines playing the play-offs coming from the upper divisions will have a easier life facing weaker opponents (and I'm answering also to Uri here), but I'm talking about the rules, not the strength of the participants. It's out of question that engines coming from lower divisions are taking advantage by *rule*, the others not. And this rule has been inserted during the competition, not before.
You say that there is not any extra-relegation, but that's just because engines leaving the competition (the ones excluded by bugs) are less than the incoming ones (the new ones promoted with promotion matches in high divisions). If there weren't any excluded engines, there would have been some extra-relegations thank to the new promoted ones. And of course I would have made some objections about the extra-relegations as well...
Regards,
Claudio
P.S. My point is to be constructive with my objections. Your tournament setup is just great, and I'm shooting at the very little flaws I seem to notice.

There should have be extra-relegations if no engines would be exluded
I know Claudio, and I appreciate them!
Best wishes,
Leo.
P.S.What about a new version of Esc?



WBEC Ridderkerk homepage.

[Claudio Della Corte]

Geschrieben von: / Posted by: Claudio Della Corte at 10 January 2004 17:04:47:
Als Antwort auf: / In reply to: Re: Startdates promotion tourneys WBEC Ridderkerk. geschrieben von: / posted by: Leo Dijksman at 10 January 2004 16:51:04:

P.S.What about a new version of Esc?

I'm working mainly on new features and documentatin. Probably I'll release a new version after the 4th CIPS.
Regards,
Claudio