Winboard Forum

by **Leo Dijksman** » 05 Apr 2004, 16:26

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Leo Dijksman at 05 April 2004 17:26:40:

Premier Division:
Round 1:
Test tourney is running!
------------------------------------

2nd Division:
Round 2:
Gothmog 0.4.7 01½1 2.5/4
KnightDreamer 3.2 10½0 1.5/4
------------------------------------
The Baron 1.3.0b3 1101 3.0/4
Movei 0.08.178 0010 1.0/4
------------------------------------
Phalanx XXII 1111 4.0/4 !!
Ufim 4.04 0000 0.0/4
------------------------------------
Terra 3.3b10 ½1½1 3.0/4
Frenzee 155 ½0½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------

4th Division:
Round 7:
Tinker 4.47 1110 3.0/4
Sunsetter C10 0001 1.0/4
------------------------------------
GK 0.90 1½½1 3.0/4
Plywood 1.73 0½½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------
Matheus 2.3 ½½10 2.0/4
Fortress 1.62 ½½01 2.0/4
------------------------------------
Sharper 0.17 10 1.0/2 = 2 games to go!
OliThink 4.1.1 01 1.0/2
------------------------------------
GK and Fortress repeated their moves in a won position again
and will be removed after this edition!
------------------------------------

Crosstables and pgn on the WBEC homepage.
Enginelist, latest updates/new engines:
05/04/2004:
New engine: Delphil v0.7
Updated: AICE v0.63
Updated: Horizon 4.1 beta 9
Leo.

WBEC Ridderkerk homepage.

by **Roger Brown** » 05 Apr 2004, 18:49

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Roger Brown at 05 April 2004 19:49:19:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Leo Dijksman at 05 April 2004 17:26:40:

------------------------------------
The Baron 1.3.0b3 1101 3.0/4
Movei 0.08.178 0010 1.0/4
------------------------------------
Phalanx XXII 1111 4.0/4 !!
Ufim 4.04 0000 0.0/4
------------------------------------
Terra 3.3b10 ½1½1 3.0/4
Frenzee 155 ½0½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------

Of course I am beaming!

Oh my goodness, Phalanx awakens. The world may never be the same.

Terra is proceeding according to plan...

No surprises here.
:-)

The Scid question is this: I want to search a database for games that contain a Queen being exchanged for three minor pieces, regardless of colours. I want the side that did the exchange to win the game as well BUT that is a minor point. I can always hunt through the games manually as I imagine that the number of such games is fairly small.
Please do not think I will be insulted if you use very simple terms and expressions in your explanations. Scid's material search features should be able to do what I want but I cannot fathom it.
Thanks for any help.
Later.

by **Sune Fischer** » 05 Apr 2004, 19:50

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 20:50:06:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Roger Brown at 05 April 2004 19:49:19:

------------------------------------
The Baron 1.3.0b3 1101 3.0/4
Movei 0.08.178 0010 1.0/4
------------------------------------
Phalanx XXII 1111 4.0/4 !!
Ufim 4.04 0000 0.0/4
------------------------------------
Terra 3.3b10 ½1½1 3.0/4
Frenzee 155 ½0½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------

Of course I am beaming!

Oh my goodness, Phalanx awakens. The world may never be the same.

Terra is proceeding according to plan...

No surprises here.

Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
I think when only one engine ponders the other engine will always get into a real time jam.
-S.

by **Dann Corbit** » 05 Apr 2004, 20:05

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Dann Corbit at 05 April 2004 21:05:41:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 20:50:06:

------------------------------------
The Baron 1.3.0b3 1101 3.0/4
Movei 0.08.178 0010 1.0/4
------------------------------------
Phalanx XXII 1111 4.0/4 !!
Ufim 4.04 0000 0.0/4
------------------------------------
Terra 3.3b10 ½1½1 3.0/4
Frenzee 155 ½0½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------

Of course I am beaming!

Oh my goodness, Phalanx awakens. The world may never be the same.

Terra is proceeding according to plan...

No surprises here.
Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
I think when only one engine ponders the other engine will always get into a real time jam.
-S.

A 50% time penalty is 70 Elo (according to many estimates). There are some indications that pondering actually does better than a 50% horsepower increase and especially if the ponder move guess is right 90% of the time or more.
So if your new program is not at least 70 Elo stronger than the old, it is definitely better to use the old. Maybe as much as 100 Elo.

my ftp site {remove http:// unless you like error messages}

by **Tord Romstad** » 05 Apr 2004, 20:06

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 05 April 2004 21:06:27:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 20:50:06:

Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
I think when only one engine ponders the other engine will always get into a real time jam.

What about disabling pondering for *both* engines in Frenzee's games? This
seems like a fair solution to me, but I am not sure whether the rules of the
tournament allow it.
Tord

by **Peter Fendrich** » 05 Apr 2004, 20:11

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Peter Fendrich at 05 April 2004 21:11:05:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 20:50:06:

------------------------------------
The Baron 1.3.0b3 1101 3.0/4
Movei 0.08.178 0010 1.0/4
------------------------------------
Phalanx XXII 1111 4.0/4 !!
Ufim 4.04 0000 0.0/4
------------------------------------
Terra 3.3b10 ½1½1 3.0/4
Frenzee 155 ½0½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------

Of course I am beaming!

Oh my goodness, Phalanx awakens. The world may never be the same.

Terra is proceeding according to plan...

No surprises here.
Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
I think when only one engine ponders the other engine will always get into a real time jam.
-S.

If you can't ponder with the current version you are reduced to almost half the time (Leo is using 2 processes). Have you tried to compare the two version with a 50% time handicap? IIRC it is easily done with Arean.
/Peter

by **Sune Fischer** » 05 Apr 2004, 20:31

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 21:31:33:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Dann Corbit at 05 April 2004 21:05:41:

------------------------------------
The Baron 1.3.0b3 1101 3.0/4
Movei 0.08.178 0010 1.0/4
------------------------------------
Phalanx XXII 1111 4.0/4 !!
Ufim 4.04 0000 0.0/4
------------------------------------
Terra 3.3b10 ½1½1 3.0/4
Frenzee 155 ½0½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------

Of course I am beaming!

Oh my goodness, Phalanx awakens. The world may never be the same.

Terra is proceeding according to plan...

No surprises here.
Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
I think when only one engine ponders the other engine will always get into a real time jam.
-S.
A 50% time penalty is 70 Elo (according to many estimates). There are some indications that pondering actually does better than a 50% horsepower increase and especially if the ponder move guess is right 90% of the time or more.
So if your new program is not at least 70 Elo stronger than the old, it is definitely better to use the old. Maybe as much as 100 Elo.

Yes I think it is a more serious handicap than I first thought.
The opponent can in principle ride on a wave of ponder hits and save a lot of time, it can't be good.
-S.

by **Sune Fischer** » 05 Apr 2004, 20:41

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 21:41:05:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 05 April 2004 21:06:27:

Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
I think when only one engine ponders the other engine will always get into a real time jam.
What about disabling pondering for *both* engines in Frenzee's games? This
seems like a fair solution to me, but I am not sure whether the rules of the
tournament allow it.
Tord

I don't think the rules should be changed because one engine has a bug.
It wouldn't be fair to all the other great programmers who has done a better
job implementing pondering.
I thought I had everything working, it has been released for some time and I had not received any bug reports on this.
I had also tested that pondering worked fine when playing on the servers.
However the servers have a certain lag between sending and receiving moves,
this "solved" the race condition. When playing on the same computer the
opponent sometimes responds with a ponder hit so fast that frenzee starts up
two search threads at the same time (a ponder and regular search thread).
I need to lock() this stuff with some mutexes and be sure the old ponder
thread is dead before I init a new search.
I have no idea how to do this, Bob told me to read his thread.c code and I
will, but this is not something I can learn in 5 minutes.
-S.

by **Peter Fendrich** » 05 Apr 2004, 20:53

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Peter Fendrich at 05 April 2004 21:53:51:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Roger Brown at 05 April 2004 19:49:19:

------------------------------------
The Baron 1.3.0b3 1101 3.0/4
Movei 0.08.178 0010 1.0/4
------------------------------------
Phalanx XXII 1111 4.0/4 !!
Ufim 4.04 0000 0.0/4
------------------------------------
Terra 3.3b10 ½1½1 3.0/4
Frenzee 155 ½0½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------

Of course I am beaming!

Oh my goodness, Phalanx awakens. The world may never be the same.

Terra is proceeding according to plan...
No surprises here.

The Scid question is this: I want to search a database for games that contain a Queen being exchanged for three minor pieces, regardless of colours. I want the side that did the exchange to win the game as well BUT that is a minor point. I can always hunt through the games manually as I imagine that the number of such games is fairly small.
Please do not think I will be insulted if you use very simple terms and expressions in your explanations. Scid's material search features should be able to do what I want but I cannot fathom it.
Thanks for any help.
Later.

Our plans seems to be unsynced! Normally Frenzee is a very tough opponent for Terra.

Let me try:
White in the material filter:
Q   0-0
R   0-2
B   1-2
N   1-2
B+N 3-3
P   0-8
Black:
Q   1-1
R   0-2
B   0-1
N   0-1
B+N 1-1
P   0-8

Now tick "ignore colors"
and go.
Manually you have to go through the result in order to remove positions
in the middle of exchanges that doesn't end up in the material you searched for. In the same time you can remove the losses.
The latter would be solvable by searching white first an filter out white losses, save in the clipboard and then the same for black. Probably easier to do it manually if it's not a very large database.
This will capture most Q vs 3 minor but not all. For instance if both by promotions had 2 queens before doing the exchange.
/Peter

by **Leo Dijksman** » 05 Apr 2004, 20:57

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Leo Dijksman at 05 April 2004 21:57:43:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 20:50:06:

------------------------------------
The Baron 1.3.0b3 1101 3.0/4
Movei 0.08.178 0010 1.0/4
------------------------------------
Phalanx XXII 1111 4.0/4 !!
Ufim 4.04 0000 0.0/4
------------------------------------
Terra 3.3b10 ½1½1 3.0/4
Frenzee 155 ½0½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------

Of course I am beaming!

Oh my goodness, Phalanx awakens. The world may never be the same.

Terra is proceeding according to plan...

No surprises here.
Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
I think when only one engine ponders the other engine will always get into a real time jam.
-S.

Hi Sune,
No problem, I have just looked and the last versions I used were 146 (3rd division) and 149 (promotion tourney).
If you tell which one to use I do that, I think with the books I use by now with 155?
Take your time, Frenzee will not play the next 2 days!
Best wishes,
Leo.

WBEC Ridderkerk homepage.

by **Tord Romstad** » 05 Apr 2004, 21:01

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Tord Romstad at 05 April 2004 22:01:31:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 21:41:05:

Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
I think when only one engine ponders the other engine will always get into a real time jam.
What about disabling pondering for *both* engines in Frenzee's games? This
seems like a fair solution to me, but I am not sure whether the rules of the
tournament allow it.
Tord
I don't think the rules should be changed because one engine has a bug.
It wouldn't be fair to all the other great programmers who has done a better
job implementing pondering.
I thought I had everything working, it has been released for some time and I had not received any bug reports on this.
I had also tested that pondering worked fine when playing on the servers.
However the servers have a certain lag between sending and receiving moves,
this "solved" the race condition. When playing on the same computer the
opponent sometimes responds with a ponder hit so fast that frenzee starts up
two search threads at the same time (a ponder and regular search thread).
I need to lock() this stuff with some mutexes and be sure the old ponder
thread is dead before I init a new search.
I have no idea how to do this, Bob told me to read his thread.c code and I
will, but this is not something I can learn in 5 minutes.

I agree. That's why I added "I am not sure whether the rules of the tournament
allow it". We clearly shouldn't change the rules in the middle of the tournament.
Thanks for the warning. I haven't yet added pondering to my new engine, but
I was considering to implement it with threads this time. Now I know at
least one potential problem to look out for.
Tord

by **Sune Fischer** » 05 Apr 2004, 21:07

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 22:07:07:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Leo Dijksman at 05 April 2004 21:57:43:

Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
Hi Sune,
No problem, I have just looked and the last versions I used were 146 (3rd division) and 149 (promotion tourney).
If you tell which one to use I do that, I think with the books I use by now with 155?
Take your time, Frenzee will not play the next 2 days!

Version 149 has the same threaded design as 151 and 155, so it will have
the same bug.
Keep the new books I'm sure they are better.
They are a little smaller so engines with learning might
be able to repeat won games like Amateur did.
I just hope not too many engines in that division has book learning.
Ok, I'll cross my fingers then

-S.

by **Matthias Gemuh** » 05 Apr 2004, 21:15

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Matthias Gemuh at 05 April 2004 22:15:57:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 20:50:06:

Terra 3.3b10 ½1½1 3.0/4
Frenzee 155 ½0½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------

Terra is proceeding according to plan...

No surprises here.
Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
I think when only one engine ponders the other engine will always get into a real time jam.
-S.

Ponder ON/OFF makes little difference. Ask Uri.
/Matthias.

BigLion + Taktix

by **Leo Dijksman** » 05 Apr 2004, 21:16

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Leo Dijksman at 05 April 2004 22:16:33:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 22:07:07:

Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
Hi Sune,
No problem, I have just looked and the last versions I used were 146 (3rd division) and 149 (promotion tourney).
If you tell which one to use I do that, I think with the books I use by now with 155?
Take your time, Frenzee will not play the next 2 days!
Version 149 has the same threaded design as 151 and 155, so it will have
the same bug.
Keep the new books I'm sure they are better.
They are a little smaller so engines with learning might
be able to repeat won games like Amateur did.
I just hope not too many engines in that division has book learning.
Ok, I'll cross my fingers then
-S.

Thats strange, I cannot remember I had problems with 149 here:
Promo tourney C: - First 3 to the 2nd div, 4, 5 and 6 to the 3rd division!
ATHLON-MP2200, 2004.01.22 - 2004.01.28
Score Fren Terr Cere Esc Knig Butc
------------------------------------------------------------
1: Frenzee 149 13.0 / 20 XXXX 0110 =11= 10=1 =110 0111
2: Terra 3.3b4 13.0 / 20 1001 XXXX 0=01 1111 1100 111=
3: Cerebro 1.23a 10.0 / 20 =00= 1=10 XXXX 0=01 0=11 =110
4: Esc 1.16 9.5 / 20 01=0 0000 1=10 XXXX 11== =011
5: Knightx 1.81 9.0 / 20 =001 0011 1=00 00== XXXX 0111
6: Butcher 1.42c 5.5 / 20 1000 000= =001 =100 1000 XXXX
------------------------------------------------------------
60 games: +28 =12 -20 *0

Thats the same computer as they play now.
I will look at it tomorrow!
Frenzee will need that, it will play vs Amy :-)

Best wishes,
Leo.

WBEC Ridderkerk homepage.

by **Sune Fischer** » 05 Apr 2004, 21:25

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 22:25:25:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Tord Romstad at 05 April 2004 22:01:31:

However the servers have a certain lag between sending and receiving moves,
this "solved" the race condition. When playing on the same computer the
opponent sometimes responds with a ponder hit so fast that frenzee starts up
two search threads at the same time (a ponder and regular search thread).
I need to lock() this stuff with some mutexes and be sure the old ponder
thread is dead before I init a new search.
I have no idea how to do this, Bob told me to read his thread.c code and I
will, but this is not something I can learn in 5 minutes.
Thanks for the warning. I haven't yet added pondering to my new engine, but
I was considering to implement it with threads this time. Now I know at
least one potential problem to look out for.
Tord

It avoids the unportable peeknamedpipe, the thought of having
to translate that piece of code to several different operating systems didn't
appeal to me.
And I figure that I need threads anyway since I want to go smp eventually.
It should be fairly straight forward once you get the hang of it, there
are some simple rules to obey and a specific set of tools that can be used.
Anyway, learning something new is always interesting, even if you end up
tossing the whole thing out and giving up on the smp ambition :-)

-S.

by **Sune Fischer** » 05 Apr 2004, 21:27

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 22:27:46:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Matthias Gemuh at 05 April 2004 22:15:57:

Terra 3.3b10 ½1½1 3.0/4
Frenzee 155 ½0½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------

Terra is proceeding according to plan...

No surprises here.
Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
I think when only one engine ponders the other engine will always get into a real time jam.
-S.
Ponder ON/OFF makes little difference. Ask Uri.
/Matthias.

Ask Uri to stand by his conviction and turn ponder off!

-S.

by **Sune Fischer** » 05 Apr 2004, 21:34

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 22:34:24:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Leo Dijksman at 05 April 2004 22:16:33:

Version 149 has the same threaded design as 151 and 155, so it will have
the same bug.
Keep the new books I'm sure they are better.
They are a little smaller so engines with learning might
be able to repeat won games like Amateur did.
I just hope not too many engines in that division has book learning.
Take your time, Frenzee will not play the next 2 days!
Ok, I'll cross my fingers then
Thats strange, I cannot remember I had problems with 149 here:
Promo tourney C: - First 3 to the 2nd div, 4, 5 and 6 to the 3rd division!
ATHLON-MP2200, 2004.01.22 - 2004.01.28
Score Fren Terr Cere Esc Knig Butc
------------------------------------------------------------
1: Frenzee 149 13.0 / 20 XXXX 0110 =11= 10=1 =110 0111
2: Terra 3.3b4 13.0 / 20 1001 XXXX 0=01 1111 1100 111=
3: Cerebro 1.23a 10.0 / 20 =00= 1=10 XXXX 0=01 0=11 =110
4: Esc 1.16 9.5 / 20 01=0 0000 1=10 XXXX 11== =011
5: Knightx 1.81 9.0 / 20 =001 0011 1=00 00== XXXX 0111
6: Butcher 1.42c 5.5 / 20 1000 000= =001 =100 1000 XXXX
------------------------------------------------------------
60 games: +28 =12 -20 *0

Thats the same computer as they play now.
I will look at it tomorrow!
Frenzee will need that, it will play vs Amy

It's a random bug, perhaps they weren't very good at ponder guessing frenzee's
move?
Too bad really because if we had spotted the problem back then I might
have been able to fix it in time.
It can't do much worse than it already is

-S.

by **Peter Fendrich** » 05 Apr 2004, 21:41

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Peter Fendrich at 05 April 2004 22:41:58:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Dann Corbit at 05 April 2004 21:05:41:

------------------------------------
The Baron 1.3.0b3 1101 3.0/4
Movei 0.08.178 0010 1.0/4
------------------------------------
Phalanx XXII 1111 4.0/4 !!
Ufim 4.04 0000 0.0/4
------------------------------------
Terra 3.3b10 ½1½1 3.0/4
Frenzee 155 ½0½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------

Of course I am beaming!

Oh my goodness, Phalanx awakens. The world may never be the same.

Terra is proceeding according to plan...

No surprises here.
Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
I think when only one engine ponders the other engine will always get into a real time jam.
-S.
A 50% time penalty is 70 Elo (according to many estimates). There are some indications that pondering actually does better than a 50% horsepower increase and especially if the ponder move guess is right 90% of the time or more.
So if your new program is not at least 70 Elo stronger than the old, it is definitely better to use the old. Maybe as much as 100 Elo.

Let's do some math here...
Engine A is pondering with 100% right guesses.
Engine B is not pondering at all.
Two processes are used and 40 moves in 40 minues.
B is using 1 minute for each move as a mean value. Let's say exactly 1 minute/move.
A is pondering 1 minute and thinking 1 minute (without sofisticated time usage).
This gives exactly doubbled time and full usage of the time alotted for both. No doubt.
The question is what could change this?
One possiblity: Let's say that they are using smart time algorithms, thinking longer on hard positions.
Could this favour A? I'm not sure but maybe. I can't see how this is better than the first case described. Well, at least A have more time to play with. It's like how richer are getting even richer because of all the money available when needed.
Anyway, if A is really earning more than doubbled time just because of having more time to play with, then doubbling the n/s in your program would give you the same advantage just by having more nodes to play with per second.
I doubt it. Do you have som figures?
/Peter
PS. The 70 ELO earned by doubbling the time is an very old SSDF observation. I'm not sure it is even true anymore and at least not for all playing levels.

by **Sune Fischer** » 05 Apr 2004, 22:04

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Sune Fischer at 05 April 2004 23:04:56:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Peter Fendrich at 05 April 2004 22:41:58:

A 50% time penalty is 70 Elo (according to many estimates). There are some indications that pondering actually does better than a 50% horsepower increase and especially if the ponder move guess is right 90% of the time or more.
So if your new program is not at least 70 Elo stronger than the old, it is definitely better to use the old. Maybe as much as 100 Elo.

Let's do some math here...
Engine A is pondering with 100% right guesses.
Engine B is not pondering at all.
Two processes are used and 40 moves in 40 minues.
B is using 1 minute for each move as a mean value. Let's say exactly 1 minute/move.
A is pondering 1 minute and thinking 1 minute (without sofisticated time usage).
This gives exactly doubbled time and full usage of the time alotted for both. No doubt.
The question is what could change this?
One possiblity: Let's say that they are using smart time algorithms, thinking longer on hard positions.
Could this favour A? I'm not sure but maybe. I can't see how this is better than the first case described. Well, at least A have more time to play with. It's like how richer are getting even richer because of all the money available when needed.
Anyway, if A is really earning more than doubbled time just because of having more time to play with, then doubbling the n/s in your program would give you the same advantage just by having more nodes to play with per second.
I doubt it. Do you have som figures?
/Peter
PS. The 70 ELO earned by doubbling the time is an very old SSDF observation. I'm not sure it is even true anymore and at least not for all playing levels.

I don't think that is the usual way of pondering.
Usually you can return instantly if you have already pondered longer than
what you intend to use on this move (unless if you're failing low or something).
If you have only pondered for half the time you need just keep searching until
the full time is up.
So assuming you pondered the correct move you have saved time.
In principle you can run entirely on the opponent's clock by doing it like this.
Near the end he won't have much time, so you will start to 'allocate'
relatively more time and thus not get the instant ponder hits.
But at this point you should be making better moves because you can tap into
all the time you have saved.
I'm not sure the double time would be a good simulation of this.
The question is what happens if they start off the game by using the same amount of time, but one engine saves up a lot and has maybe 3-4 times as much on the clock for the endgame?
Is this equivalent to having twice as much time in the entire game?
I don't think 70 Elo is accurate, it can depend on a lot of factors like the strength of the engines and the speed of computer or the time control.
My guess is there is diminishing returns for strong engines and long time controls.
-S.

by **Dann Corbit** » 05 Apr 2004, 22:19

Geschrieben von:/Posted by: Dann Corbit at 05 April 2004 23:19:21:
Als Antwort auf:/In reply to: Re: WBEC Ridderkerk new results. geschrieben von:/posted by: Peter Fendrich at 05 April 2004 22:41:58:

------------------------------------
The Baron 1.3.0b3 1101 3.0/4
Movei 0.08.178 0010 1.0/4
------------------------------------
Phalanx XXII 1111 4.0/4 !!
Ufim 4.04 0000 0.0/4
------------------------------------
Terra 3.3b10 ½1½1 3.0/4
Frenzee 155 ½0½0 1.0/4
------------------------------------

Of course I am beaming!

Oh my goodness, Phalanx awakens. The world may never be the same.

Terra is proceeding according to plan...

No surprises here.
Frenzee is going to do really bad, it is playing with ponder OFF.
Leo, I'm starting to think it might be better to use the old v.146 with pondering.
I think when only one engine ponders the other engine will always get into a real time jam.
-S.
A 50% time penalty is 70 Elo (according to many estimates). There are some indications that pondering actually does better than a 50% horsepower increase and especially if the ponder move guess is right 90% of the time or more.
So if your new program is not at least 70 Elo stronger than the old, it is definitely better to use the old. Maybe as much as 100 Elo.

Let's do some math here...
Engine A is pondering with 100% right guesses.
Engine B is not pondering at all.
Two processes are used and 40 moves in 40 minues.
B is using 1 minute for each move as a mean value. Let's say exactly 1 minute/move.
A is pondering 1 minute and thinking 1 minute (without sofisticated time usage).
This gives exactly doubbled time and full usage of the time alotted for both. No doubt.
The question is what could change this?
One possiblity: Let's say that they are using smart time algorithms, thinking longer on hard positions.
Could this favour A? I'm not sure but maybe. I can't see how this is better than the first case described. Well, at least A have more time to play with. It's like how richer are getting even richer because of all the money available when needed.
Anyway, if A is really earning more than doubbled time just because of having more time to play with, then doubbling the n/s in your program would give you the same advantage just by having more nodes to play with per second.
I doubt it. Do you have som figures?
/Peter
PS. The 70 ELO earned by doubbling the time is an very old SSDF observation. I'm not sure it is even true anymore and at least not for all playing levels.

If you make your move and think on the opponent's move, it will be a doubling of time.
But what is usually done is speculation. You already make not only your move but also your opponent's expected response and that is what you ponder on. Then, if the opponent makes the move you guessed, you are way ahead. This is much better (for instance) than simply thinking twice as long and then moving or doubling the CPU speed.
Of course, if you guess the opponent move wrong all the time, yous should not do it that way. Probably, you have problems in you evaluation.
Every study I have seen still holds (approximately).

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